Νέα Χρονιά- ολυμπιακή. Νέα Κίνα ; Μήπως νέοι Ολυμπιακοί ; Δεν νομίζω... - aleks

aleks — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:01:50 +02:00

Enough with the name of Macedonia!

By Giorgos on Wednesday, March 19 2008, 02:53 - The ''Greek'' Files - Permalink

All these days we see a marathon of the greek government to achieve an agreement between herself and the Forme Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia over the name of this country. Both sides are willing to finish with the issue for different issues. While FYROM wants to be invited to join the NATO and so it has to find a solution in order to avoid a greek veto, Greece wants to close an issue that provoked so many problems to her foreign policy. Even though from both sides many extremistes were declaring that Macedonia is Greek or Macedonia is Macedonian I believe that tha majority of the people in both sides clearly understand that the issue of the name is too trivial to cause such great problems. For Greece this story is like a greek tragedy while after so many years of indifference over the issue she faced a non convinient for her reality after the declaration of Macedonia as an indipendant state - even though all these years before, Greece recognized the Republic of Macedonia within the Yugoslavian Federation. I dont want to present the history of the dispute between the two countries. What is important now at this very moment of negotiation is not the name of FYROM. Greece finally understood that she hasnt a monopoly of the name Macedonia because of the ancient legacy. Nobody who knows history in this planet believes that the inhabitants of FYROM are connected to Alexander's kingdom. What we have to understand is that Macedonia is not something that belongs only to one people. Macedonia is rich of multinational coexistance and culture during the Byzantine and Ottoman era, where Serbians, Slavmacedonians, Bulgarians, Jews, Albanians, Greek and Turks lived together. So the name Macedonia means a lot of things to all of these people. So, FYROM has to accept a solution which of course involve the term Macedonia but with a remark that they are not the only Macedonians in the region. Every people in this planet has the right to self -determination so the Macedonians of FYROM. But this right must not insult other nations in order to co-exist in harmony. As a result in order to become a member of NATO and the EU, FYROM has to renounce any possible territorial claim over her neighbours (Greece and Bulgaria) something which is vital for the stability in the region.
Comments

1. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 05:19 by Daniel

I agree with you. Macedonia is a large georgraphic region and no one group should be entitled to monopolise the name to the humiliation of an other. This is why a geographical qualifier should be attached to the official name of FYROM such as the 'Republic of Northern Macedonia' or the 'Republic of Upper Macedonia' to distinguish it from Greek Macedonia (South Macedonia). For there to be a just and viable solution there needs to be a commitment to use this name for all purposes including domestic use. The reason I argue this is because if this not a requirement the two countries will be in this predicament again in 10 years when Greece will accuse FYROM (or whatever its name will be at that point in time) of promoting use of the name 'Republic of Macedonia' again in international and bilaterial communications with other nations. The Greek government has already made concessions when it comes to the name issue (they were vehemently against any name that even mentioned the word 'Macedonia') now I believe FYROM needs to take the necessary steps to secure its Euro-Atlantic prospects.
2. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 05:32 by AA

Republic of Macedonia is the proper name for the country bordering north of the Hellenic Republic.
The Republic of Macedonia does not have any territorial claims over the Greek province of Macedonia, nor does she have the military means to pose a threat to Greece.
Greece should quietly accept what over 100 countries in the world have already recognized. No country has a monopoly over world history. There is also a town of Macedonia here, in Ohio, USA, but nobody is thinking of changing its name out of consideration for ancient history claims.
3. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 05:49 by Gotse Krcoski

You forget to mention the Bucharest treaty of 1913, which divided the lands of Ancient Macedonia amongst Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. The part given to Serbia back then is now the Republic of Macedonia.

You forget to mention the systematic forced assimilation of Slav speaking Macedonians, by being denied to speak their own language and having their names changed to Greek sounding ones.

You forget to mention that before the 1913 treaty which divided Macedonia, Macedonians were the majority people on the whole region of Macedonia, including the region which today is under Greece.

You forget to mention the population trade between Greece and Turkey where 1 million Christians from Turkey were settled in Greek-Macedonia, which is the reason why "Greeks" now form a majority there. These same Christian Turks who have lived on that land for less than a century profess to be the true descendants of Alexander the Great? Yet we are not because we "speak" a Slavic Language? Languages throughout history have been lost and new ones adopted. Sure Slavs settled in the lands of todays Macedonia, but they also settled in parts of Greece and Italy, yet the latter are not considered Slavs because they did not adopt the Slavic language. We ADOPTED the Slavic language; the ancient Macedonians were not wiped off the face of the earth, the Slavs invaded, as did the Romans etc....these people mixed with the native people of that land. We are the descendants of that lineage. There were hardly any Greeks in that land before 1913 except for a pocket in Chalkidiki, the rest of them were forcefully settled there from Turkey.

To say that we are Slavs because we speak a Slavic language is to say that Irish, Welsh and Scottish are English because they speak an adopted English language. Or that Basque people are Spanish because they speak and adopted Spanish language. You see throughout history this has occurred and is still occurring. I’m positive within a century or two, any traces of the Gaelic or Basque languages would have disappeared, yet those people will not become English or Spanish.

So for anyone to say Greeks and not Macedonians are descendants of ancient Macedonians are plain absurd.

The misconceptions that the rest of the world is lead to believe is the result of years of Greek propaganda. The victor always writes history, Greece is more powerful and has more influence in the world, us little people have to fight for what’s right while the victors blatantly spread lies and hate amongst people.

The fact is all that i have stated is true and common sense. Anyone who is actually interested in the issue can do their own research and find this information out. The Greeks will blatantly ignore the 1913 treaty of Bucharest or the Greek population trade from any of their Macedonia history sources.

Oh, and you also forget to mention that the Republic of Macedonia already renounced any possible territorial claims against it's neighbours back in the nineties, when it changed it's flag and constitution to please the Greeks. Territorial aspirations towards its neighbours are renounced in the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, which makes this whole situation absurd. Greece's claims are absurd, there is a lot more to this than just a name. If anyone is truly interested, then do your own research, the western media will never back stab their Greek brothers and tell u the truth.

Also visit www.florina.org the Macedonian party in Greece. Read some of the stories of human rights abuses against Macedonians and you'll soon realise that the "cradle of civilisation" the "birthplace of Democracy" is responsible for some of the worst human rights abuses of our time and is still carrying them out.
4. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 05:51 by Rade Petkoski

Today, as we enter the 21st century, the Macedonians of Greece continue to be harassed and discriminated by the Greek government, 87 years since Greece took over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonian language is still not recognized, the Macedonian nationality is still denied, and the Macedonians are still forced to have Greek family names, because having a Macedonian name Greece considers illegal. Human Rights Watch (Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece), Amnesty International, and the European Community have the Greek oppression of the Macedonians well documented, found Greece guilty, and demanded that it recognize the Macedonian language and nation and end its oppression. Despite of it, the Macedonians continue to exist in Greece as majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia and as minority in the southern half, and peacefully continue to demand their human rights. Will Greece ever became a democracy?

Let us be who we are and call us by our name MACEDONIA
5. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 05:52 by Andrew

There is a province called Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria adjacet to the Republic of Macedonia. Are the Bulgarians crying? No they are not, they were the first country to recognise Macedonia under her constitutional name. You see by putting the word 'Republic' in front of the name, it was clear you were dealing with a country and not a province. The Bulgarians got that, but the Greeks are still trying to figure it out.

This is nonsense, Greece is using its influence on certain weak-minded EU members to help cover up its human rights abuses. That's the beginning and the end of this 'name argument'. The European Union is disgracing itself with this "non-issue". Time to respect the right of a people to call themselves as they are and to name their own country.
6. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:09 by john

One of the worst articles i have ever read. It hilariously contradicts itself with ease.

Macedonians have the universal right to declare as Macedonians. Without exception!
7. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:10 by Makedonka

I was, I am and I will always be Macedonian. I don't understand how you can equate nationalism with the basic human right of self identification. My grandparents come from both the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian region that is under Greek rule. They all share the same Macedonian identity and they all speak the same language, Macedonian. They all share the same language and identity as millions of other Macedonians spread out around the world. Although my grandmother's village lies in present day Greece, it will forever be Macedonia to me and my family. It's rather disgusting to me that the world turned their backs on the Macedonians and their plight. History is written by the victors, but it is not always the truth. The truth is passed on and never forgotten. I know the Macedonian truth and I will continue to pass it on to my children. I thank my grandparents for never allowing the Greek government and church to break them down and assimilate them. Da ziveje Makedonija i Makedoncite. Razbudetese i bidete jaki! Diasporata ve podrzava!
8. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:13 by Bobby Josifovski

"Every people in this planet has the right to self -determination so the Macedonians of FYROM. But this right must not insult other nations in order to co-exist in harmony."

According to this principle, I wonder if the Nazis may have been judged wrongly... since they too were also 'insulted' by the self-determination and presence of the Jews as a people?

Is not the renaming of a nation and a nationality an attempt to eliminate its historical and cultural links...a cultural genocide?

I am sorry that my existence and self-determination as a Macedonian insult Greek people in anyway...but in the end...this is their problem, not mine...I will not cease to exist and I will not forgo my human right and dignity to call myself and my country as I choose because of Greek insecurities!

How can one live in harmony when recognition of your fellow man's identity is being trampled on?
9. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:26 by Venom

Young greeks, grkomani and hellenised minorities. The time ahs come for you to step back and realise what you are doing is the biggest load of bullshit your pathetic government has fed you. It is time you yourselves stopped and thought about what you are doing and that it is useless following what your government is feeding you blindly and without cause.

I am Macedonia. My whole family is Macedonian. I know many, MANY Macedonians from 'Aegean' Macedonia. They were never greek, at any point of their lives and have endured a false greek identity forced upon them.

The name issue is an attempt to cover this up along with the many other attempts at culturral genocide the greeks have committed against the Macedonians over the years.

If you don't believe this, you are brainwashed.

No country has the right to tell another country what to call themselves based on a province. Wake up greeks.
10. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:28 by anuska

I demand the president of France Mr Sarkozy to openly appologize to all the Macedonians for hummiliating them in public with his statement about how should my country be called. Otherwise Mr Sarkozy might be taken to international court for exercising racial harassment and discrimination and subtile genocid towards entire Macedonian nation.

Second the Mediator Nimitz has to withdraw himself from the mediatorship for breaking the basic human laws of UN, the organization which gave him the mediatorship, with his last proposal.

At the end I want to point to NATO not to allow to be a personal toy of the Greek goverment, because what the Greek goverment is doing now towards us is because it doesn't want to see us in NATO. So NATO if you really want our country inside the organization, and if you want to interfere in this ridiculous dispute, you should work on the real problems between us. That is recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece and returning the property of Macedonians expeled from Greece during the civil war in 45-48. Nato pls do not be naive to think that if we agree on the name issue the problems between our countries will pass. The real problems would then begin and NATO will blow its head out of troubles.
11. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:31 by anuska

P.S. If Greek people have problem with their national identification, I don't have that kind of problem. I am Macedonian have no other choice but to be Macedonian.
12. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:34 by Methodius

The War Will Begin Soon Macedonians Living In Greece (Aegean Macedonia) & Bulgaria (Pirin Macedonia) Will Begin A War Of (Pride) (History) (Identity) Along With The Macedonians From The Republic Of Macedonia & The Macedonian Diaspora Around The World Will Fight 2 European Union Members And Will Stop At Nothing To Gain Our Freedom And Get Back Our Lands.Any NATO UN OR US Peace Keepers Get It Our Way And We Will Kill Them And If Europe Wants To Takes Us On We Will Show Them Hell Just Like Our Greatest Warrior Did "Alexander The Great Of Macedonia" We Wont Stop At Nothing If We Have To We Will Destroy Sofia & Burn Athens To The Ground.They Might Have More Weapons & Numbers Than Us But We Have Better Tactics And Know Our Way Around The Whole Balkans.This War Will Be The Bloodiest War Of The 21st Century.We Urge Any Greeks & Bulgarians Who Wish Peace To Fight With Us Agaisnt Them With Us You Will Get Better Treatment & More Rights.The War Will Begin Soon & After More Than 2000 Years Macedonians Will Welcome The Return Of Throne And A New King Will Arise.
13. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:35 by daniel

To Andrew - the reason why Pirin Macedonia isnt a factor in this dispute is because the Bulgarians do not argue that they are Macedonians - instead they argue that Macedonians (citizens of the Republic of Macedonia) are Bulgarians and that the language is a dialect of Bulgarian. A sizeable number of Macedonians have even taken out Bulgarian citizenship on 'ancestrial grounds'

As for human rights violations, perhaps the Macedonians should take up those with the EU court of Human Rights
14. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:38 by anuska

Pleas NATo don't make such a precedent for our entrance, how would look the other potential countries that want to enter in NATO when they see how you push us and blackmail us? Maybe they will change their mind when it comes to further enlargement?!?! I don't want anything else but to enter in the organization with dignity and self-respect like every other country that is entering. Because we will all be long-run allies in the organization. And fight against therorism together. Equal basic human rights for all! Nothing less and nothing more I don't ask from you.
15. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:42 by anuska

Methodius? Are you maybe Greek here for promoting false propaganda here in public? Trying to make us savadges here in public? Because none of the minorities in greece is so self confident and feels so strong to speak such bulshits.
16. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:51 by Lakis

FYROM = Yugoslavs = SOuth Slavs, it's what they are, it's their culture it's their history it's their language.
17. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 06:56 by Hank

Everyone that has read or studied ancient Greece and Alexander that Great know that the Ancient Macedonians are of Greek Origin. Modern Greece today is trying to compromise on the name Macedonia with FYROM for example, Northern Macedonia, Nova Macedonia , New Macedonia etc, etc, and FYROM has rejected every name. This battle for the Macedonia name has been going on since the 1950s. Its Time for FYROM to end this game.
18. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:17 by christos

Macedonia ..
WAS
IS
& ALWAYS
WILL
BE
GREEK!
..
ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS A GREEK!!
& NOT A SLAV!!

ZITO H HELLAS.. ZITO H MAKEDONIA!
19. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:22 by Dundee UTD

Enough with the BS of Greece. They have the worst human rights record in Europe yet proclaim the basis of joining the EU and NATO is for good neighbourly relations?
Does that include ethnic & cultural genocide by torturing, assimilating and forcefully expelling hundreds of thousands of ethnic Macedonian's from occupied Aegean (Greek) Macedonia after 1913 only to bring in the descendants of Alexander the Great who apparently are Christian Turks? Can't people see through the Greek governments facade of BS?

Eugene Borza an American Professor actually states the ancient Macedonians were not Greek nor related to the Greeks. The adoption of Greek in the courts of ancient Macedonia means nothing about the ethnicity of the people, just like the fact the Irish, Scottish and Welsh have all lost their Gaelic language does not mean they are all of the sudden ethnically English because they officially speak English.
Slav refers to a linguistic sub-branch of the INdo-European family not an ethnicity!

Have a read you may learn something...

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/v...
20. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:26 by Gotse

THIS IS FOR THE SERBS......

How do you fell about the lose of the Kosovo province?

Now you know how it is to be a Macedonian, when Macedonia was splite in pieces in 1913.
21. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:32 by Gotse

THIS IS FOR THE GREEKS.......

History always repeates itself, no matter what you do.

Let me put it in simple terms "what goes around, cames around twice as hard".
22. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:37 by Gotse

THIS IS FOR THE BULGARIANS........

Just keep on giving Visas to the Macedonian people.

When the time cames to unite Macedonia you will have more Macedonians in your country to vote for united Macedonia.
23. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:42 by Gotse

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE...........

As you can see these 3 countries that have been bad to the Macedonians will get punishment, whether from NATO, EU and UN or from GOD.
24. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:43 by Lakis

A barking dog never bites.
25. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:44 by anuska

Greeks you are worst than Serbs!! The whole world was laughing on Serbs looking in the history of 13 century, and you?!?!? what are you doing?!?!? You are looking back in 3000 years before!!!! how mauch is NATO concearned about that history?!?!? You have very lousy theory about this dispute. I cannot imagine what the organization thinks about you now.
26. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 07:54 by Turko

Greece is Turkey....
27. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 08:05 by Gotse

THIS IS FOR THE TURKS.........

You have been fantastic people for the last 80 yoears.

Your next to be given a veto by Greece over the Cyprus issue, it looks like Greece has lots of power over NATO, it can give vetos when ever it fell like.
28. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 08:14 by Gotse

AND THIS IS MY OPINION.........

How stupit is Greece barking for a name that does not belong to them or history.
Greece was formed in 1832 as a nation without any pieces of the geographical Macedonia. 176 years later they claim Macedonia as theirs and it goes back 4000 years ago. Now that is stupit and dumb.
29. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 08:34 by daniel

to anuska - the world can laugh as much as it wants. At the end of the day Greece has veto power in an organisation that FYROM wants to enter. So Greece is laughing right now because they have the power for make FYROM do what it wants!
30. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 09:33 by Methodius

MACEDONIA IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN
ALEXANDER THE GREAT IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN

GREECE IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE GAY
LEONIDAS IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE GAY
31. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 09:41 by Methodius

TO ANUSKA YOUR A FUCKING DISGRACE TO OUR PEOPLE HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU GONA GET SOMETHING WITHOUT BEING VIOLENT WE'VE BEIN DOING THAT FOR THE PAST 17 YEARS AND WHAT THAY STILL CALL MACEDONIA GREEK.IF A MACEDONIANS GONA LISTEN TO YOU THERE GONA GET FUKED UP BECAUSE UR DUMB WAY OF ACHIEVING SHIT IS PEACE,FUCK PEACE,A GUY HAD A GREEK MACEDONIA FLAG OH HIS PORCHE ONE DAY AND U KNO WOT I DONE I TRASHED HIS PLACE AND PUT HIM IN ACHOMA THATS THE ONLY WAY OUR PEOPLE CAN BE HEARD TO GO BACK TO OUR ANCESTRY THE WAY THE ALEXANDER THE GREAT DONE IT BURNING CITYS AND KILLING EVERYTHING IN HIS WAY
32. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:20 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

STOP USING A GREEK NAME (METHODIUS) YOU COCK SUCKING BULGAROV BITCH. THINK YOU BULGAROVS ARE TOUGH? START A WAR CUNT AND WE WILL WIPE YOUR WEST BULGARIA OFF THE MAP YOU GAY DREAMING PEDEROV CIGANOV.
33. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:25 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

GOTSE THE BULGARIAN, GO BACK TO YOUR MOTHERLAND BULGARIA CIGANOV BULGAROV. MACEDONIA HAS A MESSAGE FOR YOU BULGAROVS FROM SKOPJE: "GO AND GET FUCKED, I BELONG TO THE GREEKS".
34. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:28 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

TO ANUSKA BULGAROVA, YOU TYPE LIKE AN UNEDUCATED WEST BULGARIAN BITCH. HOW BOUT THIS DIE GIPSY SKOPJE!!!!! LOVE MACEDONIA.
35. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:29 by snowman30

There is no macedonian in fyrom,they are all confused bulgarians.If you want to be a Macedonian join the greek macedonia.
36. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:39 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

DUNDEE UTD, YOU LISTEN TO A DICKHEAD'S (BORZA) WORDS AND IT EVEN PUBLISHED BECAUSE ANTHROPOLOGISTS FOUND HIS ARTICLE TO BE COMPLETELY FALSE YOU IGNORANT BULGAROV CUNT. TREATY OF 1913 IS IRRELEVANT DICKHEAD. YOU KNOW FUCK ALL ABOUT MACEDONIA YOU COCK SUCKING BULGAROV.
37. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:44 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

MONGOLGAYTURK, WE ARE FUCKING YOU SINCE 1821 CUNT. YOU HATE US BECAUSE WE SLAUGHTERED YOU GAYTURKS ONE BY ONE AND YOU LOVE THE BULGAROVS BECAUSE THEY WERE SUCKING YOUR DICKS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
38. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:45 by MEGAS ALEXANDROS

ONLY THE UNEDUCATED SAY THAT MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK.
39. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:46 by hristo

i am a macedonian, and i am a greek - its the same thing. these slav speaking minorities in greece are infact greek, but they have adopted slavic customs and slavic language. if you visit them in greece, you will see they are proud to call themselves greek, however they also speak the local language which is slav. there is no confusion in greece. p.s. how many soldiers in alexander's army where called zoran and goran and zlate or kiro or dolce? the soldiers where all greek with greek names, not slav ones. he even named his horse buchephalus (a greek word)
40. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:56 by snowman30

the complex of all the fyromians is illustrated in youtube when they post scenes from oliver stones alexander..they cut the scene where alexander says 'FOR THE FREEDOM AND GLORY OF GREECE'...It hurts to listen the truth fyromians...
41. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 10:56 by George

I am also from Macedonia - 30 minutes from the metropolis Thessaloniki. All I have to say to our friends from ex-Yugoslavia.

My name is George and I am Macedonian - who are you?

I am flattered you are dying to be me - but the facts remain you are you and me is me. I will never be Slavised =- because-= I am MACEDONIAN.

The Bulgars need to thump their chests like Tarzan trying to convince the world they are Macedonian...and me, well I find you all very amusing!

It must really suck to be a wannabe.
42. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:00 by snowman30

iF yoy want to read more troubled fyromians and laugh visit maknews....the home of idiots and confused bulgarians.
43. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:00 by King of Macedon

Macedonia was never Greek's, it was the other way arround, Macedonians conquered Greece, so territory which is at present Greece was occupied and ruled by Macedonians. Macedonians and Ilirians were allies and Greeks called Romans to liberate them from the Barbarian Macedonians and Ilirians.
Of course Romans never left.
Later on in the 6th century, what is now Greece was settled by Slavs, all the way to Peloponnese. Athens was a Slavic speaking city. Through church and Bisantic administration Slavs in southern part of Greece became Helenised.
What is at present Macedonia, it was the Macedonian population that become Slavenized. The name Greece was adopted for the present territory in the 19th century, before that it was called Rumelia, and thanks for the 2nd Balkan war, Greece got Thessaloniki and what they also cal Macedonia. Soon as they got this territory they ethnically cleansed it not only from Macedonians or by forcefully Helenized their names, they also cleansed of hundreds of thousands of Albanians, Turks and Jews.
On their places they settled their refugees from Anatolia. This is the only a part of the story, I am sure there is more to it.
What is Greece doing now is the same cowardice as Italians by claiming parts of Slovenia and Croatia. When was Yugoslavia Greeks kept their mouth shut, now little Macedonia is easy target. The same was with the Turks.
Greeks never in their history fought one single battle against Turks, but, after Turkey was finished by others, then they became heroes fighting few isolated Turkish garrisons stationed in what is the present Greece.
44. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:05 by snowman30

I'M also a greek macedonian from the hurt af the real macedonia Veria..near vergina where is the tomb of king philip.
45. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:10 by snowman30

Macedonia was a greek kingdom as was back then the other greek city states....sparta...athens...thessaly...thebes....They speak a greek dialect and they loved the same gods.
46. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:11 by King of Macedon

In 1913 Greece and her allies Serbia and Bulgaria, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Greece occupied the largest part, 51% of the whole territory, called Aegean Macedonia
Even Greeks sources, including the king of Greece himself in 1912, confirm that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overwhelming majority of the population were NOT Greeks, confirming the fact that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times (Nikolaides, Spiros Melas Epopee).

But since 1913 Greece begun its assimilatory policies against the Macedonians, changing their family names to Greek names, renaming the cities, rivers, and mountains with Greek names, and forbidding the speaking of the Macedonian language.
47. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:12 by George

Well it seems as though, even under Roman govts; seems to me as though Greeks were always in Macedonia - and the absolute vast majority.

Peasant names in Macedonia in the late 14th century by Andrea Hicks.

http://www.maridonna.com/onomastics...
48. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:14 by George

Hey King of Macedonia - did you know Macedonian Royalty spawned from Argos in Peloponesos ?

Are you suggesting your bloodlines is from Argos?

Or are you simply mis-educated that has no honor in terms of political and intellectual integrity?

Well, what is it going to be?
49. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:15 by Methodius

GO FUCK URSELF ALEXANDROS YOU COCKSUCKING ETHOPIAN DOG IF U WANA SAY SOMETHING SAY IT TO MY FACE U NET WARRIOR I DARE YOU MOTHA FUCKA ILL FUKN TAKE YOU ON CUNT GIME A PLACE & TIME AND ILL MEET U THERE U FUKN POOFTA GREEK MOTHA FUCKA GO TAKE IT UP DA ASS FROM UR PAPOU
50. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:15 by snowman30

Fyrom has only 10% of the land of ancient macedonia.
51. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:17 by snowman30

methodius go back to your cave...slavobulgarian dog.
52. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:25 by Methodius

DID YOU KNOW THAT IN ANCIENT GREECE SAME SEX COUPLES WERE LEGAL INFACT THE GREEKS ALLOWED HOMOSEXUALITY. FACE IT ALEXANDROS & SNOWMAN30 YOUR ANCESTORS WERE GAY AND YOUR HISTORY IS ALL MYTHOLOGY THATS YOU POOFTAS STEAL OUR HISTORY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO HISTORY THE HISTORY YOUSE HAVE IS THE 300 GAY SPARTANS AND YOUR MYTHOLOGY
53. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:29 by Methodius

AY DICKHEADS IF YOUS WANA START SHIT COME TO BANKSTOWN AND FACE ME THERE NOT ON THE NET YOU FAGGOTS
54. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:32 by George

Now you know why the VETO from NATO & EU.

Not only are you corrupt, but also ridiculous.

Something you may need to know about sex in ancient Greece.

The Greeks understood, perhaps, something we moderns do not; the Greeks understood the "inhuman chaos of nature" and perceived human order as the triumph of the mind and culture over the brute forces of nature. Eros, is not "love" but "sexual desire." It is a representation of how sex attacks the mind and breaks man's will. Eros is a "disease of the soul." Consequently, sexual attraction as madness is a theme that recurs throughout Greek literature. The Greeks saw sex and violence as two sides of the same irrational coin.

To the Greek way of thinking, mind must control the irrational. Subjection to passion and appetite is a form of slavery. The Greeks understood that women possess "a power that speaks to the irrational in men." And ultimately, "what disturbs men about women is what disturbs men about themselves...." Unlike those who would like to portray women as powerless victims of a male patriarchy.

Sure, ancient Greeks were different than we are, but human nature has pretty much remained constant over the last several thousand years. Women were partners in the joint management of Greek society.

This is why Hesiod & Homer promoted the Greek genetical tree so strongly.....and that is why the West knows of the Illiad today.
55. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:36 by mak-guy

sadly in these moments only two things come to my mind:

1) why anybody believes that change of the name will fix all the issues Greece has with Macedonia? The point I am trying to make is that the issues they have are much much deeper, and sadly they decided that closing their eyes (forcing name change) will fix them.

2) why on earth Macedonians believe that any agreement with Greece will hold?!?! Why? There is already one agreement which was broken by Greece , why this new one will hold? Because the name is the core issue and fixing the name of Macedonia will fix everything?

The time is going to show that the current negotiations were worthless - Macedonia should recognize that Greece will not respect any agreement.
56. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:36 by Methodius

4
57. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:38 by King of Macedon

In all these 20 years of our dispute, I have been amazed by the fact that Greeks deeply beleive that we have been brainwashed by Tito and by some miracle the “Macedonia” chip has been somehow implanted in the brains of 2 million people.

I’m honestly curious, how do the Greek interpret the name “Makedonia”? In Macedonian language it means: “Make”=mother + “Don”=home. Makedonia = “Mother Land”. What is the meaning of the word “Makedonia” in Greek?

You guys are keep on skipping the fact that centuries have passed between Alexander and today. Civilizations came and dissapear in this region. The Slavs came there and they married and mixed with the natives. Their language mixed into a new language. Were the natives Greeks? If yes, then we are cousins. The new kings used the ancient symbols: The Alexander Star and the Lyon as the symbols of their kingdomes. Example: King Samouil, X century AD used the Star and the Lyon. Our association with the Star and the Lyon are more related to Samoil than to Alexander. Not only the Slavs used these symbols. The crussaders were putting the Star and the Lyon massively when they were passing through this region. Sir Richard the Lyon-heart has put the Alexander Lyon (Bukefal) on his armor. Later on, the Alexander symbols with some modifications ended up as national symbols of half of the European nations. Example: the Dutch and Belgian Lyons, The three lyons of England. There was another guy from a recent history who used a powerful Alexander symbol in hope that he will regain the Alexander’s glory - Adolf Hitler and the infamous Swastika. When you visit me in Macedonia, I will take to an ancient ruin from the Philip II the Macedonian era - the place is full with swastika’s.

The population identified with the name Macedonia and adopted it. That is why I’m saying, an attempt to localize the Alexander’s legacy in the border or one state and one modern contemporary nation is ridiculous.

You are so loud in your claims in the exclusivity and copyrights on the terms Macedonia and Macedonian, while there is a wide dispute about the topic was Ancient Macedonia Greek or not. I am not a professional historian. I have occasioanly read some pros and cons from worlds sources. But I have read the bible,and Apostle Paul qualifies the region as separate.ie Acts 20v1-3 which is as follows……

” 1)When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia.
2) He travelled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to the people, and finally arrived in Greece,
3) where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia.”

Your recent ethnical and political connection to Macedonia is also shaky. According to the latest Ottoman census from 1905, the population in the Macedonia region was composed of 68% of “Kaurs” - Slavic Speaking Orthodox Christians. The remaining population was consisted of Greeks, Jews, Vlachs and Turks.
Constitutionally, the Greek part of Macedonia has become part of Greece in 1913, and it was not even called Macedonia for quite some time after that. In the period between 1915 -1950, Greece made a massive Hellenization of this region, by changing all the names of the cities and ethnically cleansing almost all Slavic-Macedonians from that region. They were all shipped from the Salonika port to America, Australia, Argentina… during 1915-40, and to Yugoslavia, Russia and Ukraine in 1948-1950. Just check the US immigration registers from 1920s, more than 250 000 slavic macedonians came from Greek Macedonia ( born in Solun, Voden, Lerin, Kostur, Kukush - or what you called today Thessaloniki, florina, Odessa…) These people, as well as their new generations are even today not allowed to enter Greece and at least see the bith places of their grandfathers.

In all these 20 years, the Greek side has done nothing else but brutal force and arrogance. We have seen from the Greek side nothing more than: blocades, embargos, threats, vetos, insults, negations, denials… Every single statement from a Greek official contains an insult and a threat to us. I personally, haven’t seen any genuine attempt from Greece to understaind why were call ourselves Macedonians and what does it means for us.

I can tell to you, we have studied about Alexander not more than 2-3 classes in schools, and that was in the section “World Ancient History”. You have put Alexander in our mouth and many Macedonians started to chew it.

Our side also reacted terrybly in this dispute. We took a position based on the good old Balkan, Donkey-like, stubborness. The more Greeks insult and threat, the more we dig in into the trench. At the end, our economy will go to hell, we will live in the mud, drink water from a river and eat shit and rocks, but we will not “surrender”. This is a suicidal Balkan mentality that has brought for example the Serbs where they are today, and actually us as well with this problem.

I can tell you that many Macedonans are ready to have a compromise if they see that Greece finally stops with the insults and threats and shows some genuine acceptance of Macedonian nation,identity, culture and language. For example, today there are still around 40-50 000 slavic Macedonians living in Greece who are not even allowed to speak their language on the street or publicly state that they are from Slavic origin. Greece can simply recognize these people as ethnic minority. The name does not matter, Greece can call them upper or lower or slavic or ..whathever macedonians.
…gotta go, need to go to a meeting, perhaps later…
58. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:40 by Methodius

IMANASOU INI BOTANI
59. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:40 by A Macedonian

When was Macedonia Greek I ask you, ancient Macedonia was never Greek, but Greece was Macedonian, Greece was under Macedonian rule. And what is today called Macedonia in Greece, is a territory that Greece occupied in 1913 during the Balkan wars, hundreds of thousands of Macedonians were killed or made refugees since then and Greece is continuing a campaign of ethnic cleansing ever since, I have relatives that have lost their homes in the Greek civil war, and to this day they are still not even allowed to enter Greece simply because they are Macedonians that are a living testimony of the Greek atrocities. Furthermore the territory that Greece now calls Greek Macedonia, until 1988 was simply called Northern Greece, the word Macedonia or Macedonian were not even allowed to be mentioned in Greece as a part of the Greek assimilatory policy over the Macedonians there. Greece changed the province name when it became evident that the Republic of Macedonia will gain independence from Yugoslavia. So I ask you, why does not Greece simply change the name of its province, a province that it’s not even called Macedonia but it’s three regions called East, Central and West Macedonia, which clearly differentiates from the Republic of Macedonia. I am just angered at the injustice that the world tolerates, simply because, they see Greece as a pet that the western world sees as the “cradle of democracy”. What kind of democracy is this when we as Macedonians are denied our basic right of freedom to speak our identity, our name, our history etc. The Greeks don’t really want us to change our name, that is not the real problem for them. THEY WANT US TO JUST DISAPEAR, because we are a thorn in their eye, because we are a living proof of the crimes they did over the Macedonian population during the past 100 and more years, because we can prove it, because our existence threatens their utopist vision of a pure Greek nation (which is a non-sense on its own), because minorities in Greece don’t even have the basic human rights (Macedonians, Turks, Albanians, Vlahs). Don’t believe me, go in Greece and speak out in a bar or somewhere “I’m a Macedonian” and see what happens.
60. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:43 by Proud Macedonian

Hm, if this issue is so important to Former Ottoman Province of Younanistan, why don't you just invade Macedonia? Then you can call it as you wish. Or, if Macedonia is yours, how come that you let some smallish countries divide it???

Until then, Macedonia will choose its name... As 200+ other countries did.

(Don't tell me that waving with some pictures of Prime minister in front of some monument consists of a proof of iredentism. Don't make the Royal British forces in Northern Ireland laugh at you... Or Spanish forces in their iredentist places... Or french ... )

Not a single country has the right to name another country. And, yes, we have some ancestry from Filip and Aleksandar. And I have to say - maybe the strongest ancestry because we kept their name. Just check official archives for Macedonian immigrants in USA (Ellis island, ...) in 1890-1930... Long before Tito...

And now we sold out the Serbs and we will enter Nato on April 3rd. Under the name of "Republika Makedonija" i.e. the holy constitutional name, but without English (or French or any other) translation. Just pure constitutional name without translation...

BECAUSE IT IS GOOOOOOOOD FOR THE FOPoY also... You will get extra defense, NATO will get clear path to the occupied territories of Serbia...

Long live the newly restored centuries long friendship between Macedonia and FOPoY. Don't get us wrong, but Filip didn't know that destroying democracy and giving you monarch will deny your freedom for like 20 centuries after his occupation...
61. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:44 by George

If you weren't brainwashed in Yugoslavia.

Then where were was your ethnic representation in the 1913 Teaty of Bucharest and 1919 Treaty of Nuilly?

Ahhh, that's right you self declared yourselves as Bulgarian then.

...then during WW2 you know longer wanted to be with the fascist Bulgarians..so being communist south slavs/Bulgarians with the old dream of taking Greek soil...you suddenly became "Macedonian"....

May I remind you what was said in 1944 by the United States?

"This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece". U.S Secretary Of State STETTINIUS-26 Dec. 1944
62. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:45 by Methodius

U KNO WOT I KNO WOT I AM I KNO WHO I AM I KNO WERE I COME FROM I DONT CARE WOT YOUS SAY OR WOT YOUS DO I AM MACEDONIAN
63. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:52 by Methodius

MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS
64. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:55 by mak-guy

for george:

please check your passport => it has section with name and nationality. Then please write back what you are your findings.

Now, read this very carefully:

I am Macedonian, born and raised in R. Macedonia, but my roots are from Kostur (I am not going to translate the name for you asshole - its time to get used to it). I am and I was always Macedonian. Not because Tito said so, but because my grandparents said so. In clear Macedonian language. And I do possess property there.

In a way, I and the others like me are your problem - you can hide it, but not forever.

And one more thing: I don't want to have anything to do with Alexander the Great - you can have the honor of being descendant of the murderer on pair with Hitler - although he started with the ancient Greek people.

Can you George process all this? Do you understand?
65. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 11:56 by George

Wasn't Macedonia for Macedonians said by Tatar-chev in Thessaloniki, being educated and traioned in Sofia - Bulgaria?

So that slogan is used to annexe Hellenic soil.?

Well, I must say it seems as though you people have yet to grow up. Then you wonder, why the VETO will be unfair.
66. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:02 by George

Do you want me to understand why you want to mis appropriate the personality of my character and turn it into a Slav?

Yes, I, fully processed it.

It's not going to happen.

We really want to help, but how can we when you want to annexe everything up to Mount Olympus?

I understand you have been bought up believing in something, but I simply do not accept you trodding on my toes and mis representing the personality of my character.

You are south slavs/yugoslavs. Why be ashemed of that?
67. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:12 by King of Macedon

Chronology of Greece's Rule in Aegean Macedonia

The following chronicles the methods employed by Greece in its effort to eradicate the centuries old Macedonian ethnic presence in the Aegean Macedonia in the name of Greek territorial expansion. Specific laws and decrees are presented against the backdrop of relevant historical events affecting Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia.

The chronology begins with the year 1912 when Greece, for the first time ever, comes into possession of Macedonian territory by force of arms. Almost a decade had passed since the 1903 Ilinden (St. Ilija Day) Uprising lead by the IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) in a failed effort to free Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke.

The ominous prophecy of Harilaos Trikoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895, foretold what the neighboring Greek state had in mind for Macedonia and its people:

"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins. If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will take the population Slavs. If we take it, we will make all of them Greeks".

1912 Balkan Wars

Irredentist Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro drive a crumbling Ottoman Empire out of the Balkans and pursue territorial expansion into Macedonia. Greek army enters Aegean Macedonia ostensibly to "liberate" Macedonia from the Ottoman.

1913

Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian alliance breaks down over competing claims for Macedonia. Bulgaria miscalculates and attacks Serbia and Greek armies. Ottoman forces rejoin war against Bulgaria. Bulgaria defeated, loses territorial gains in Macedonia.

From "liberation to tyranny", Greek army commences savage and bloody "ethnic cleansing" of the towns of Kukush, Doiran, Demir-Hisar and Serres in the Aegean Macedonia.

160 Macedonian villages burned, and atrocities committed. Mass exodus of refugees.

Treaty of Bucharest (Aug. 10, 1913). Ends War and partitions Macedonia.

Greece refers to conquered Macedonian lands as the "new territories" under "military administration". Not yet officially incorporated into the Kingdom of Greece.

Military occupation augmented by influx of administrators, educators; police brought from Greece.

Professor R.A. Reiss reports to the Greek government: "Those whom you would call Bulgarian speakers I would simply call Macedonians...Macedonian is not the language they speak in Sofia...I repeat the mass of inhabitants there (Macedonia) remain simply Macedonians."

1917

LAW 1051 Greece inaugurates new administrative jurisdictions for governing newly acquired lands in the Aegean Macedonia.

1919 Treaty of Versailles (Paris)

England and France ratify the principles of the Bucharest Treaty and endorse the partitioning of Macedonia.

Greece pursues forced expulsion and denationalization of Macedonians and begins a colonization by transplanting Greeks into the Aegean Macedonia.

Article 51 of Treaty of Versailles espouses equality of civil rights, education, language, and religion for all national minorities which Greece violates and ignores.

Neuilly Convention and forced exchange of populations. About 70,000 Macedonians expelled from the Aegean Macedonia to Bulgaria and 25,000 Greeks transplanted from Bulgaria to Aegean Macedonia.

Greek Commission On Toponyms issues instructions for choosing Hellenized names for Macedonian places in the Aegean Macedonia.

1920

Greek Ministry Of Internal Affairs publishes booklet: "Advice On The Change Of The Names Of Municipalities And Villages" in Aegean Macedonia.

1925

76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities.

LEAGUE OF NATIONS pressures Greece to extend rights to Macedonian minority.

ABECEDAR Primer printed in Athens for use by Macedonian school children in the Aegean Macedonia. Written in Latin alphabet and reflect the Macedonian spoken in Lerin district in western Aegean Macedonia.

Serbs and Bulgarians protest to League of Nations. Primer undermines their claim that Macedonians are Serbs and Bulgarians respectively.

Greece counters with last minute cable to League: "the population.....knows neither the Serbian nor the Bulgarian language and speaks nothing but a Slav-Macedonian idiom."

Greece "retreats" so as to preserve Balkan alliances. Primer is destroyed after League of Nations delegates leave Solun.

Thereafter, Greece denies existence of Macedonians. Refers to Macedonians as "Slavophone Greeks", "Old Bulgarians" and many other appellations but not as Macedonians.

1926

Legislative Orders in Government Gazette #331 orders Macedonian names of towns, villages, mountains changed to Greek names.

1927

Cyrillic inscriptions destroyed or overwritten from churches, tombstones, and icons. Church services in the Macedonian language are outlawed.

Macedonians Ordered To Abandon Personal Names And Under Duress Adopt Greek Names Assigned To Them By The Greek State.

1928

1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926.

English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians)..., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them."

1929

Greek government enacts law where any demands for national rights by Macedonians are regarded as high treason.

LAW 4096 directive on renaming Macedonian place-names.

1936

Reign of terror by fascist dictator General Metaxas, 1936-40. Macedonians suffer state terrorism and pogroms.

Thousands of Macedonians jailed, sent to internal exile (EXORIA) on arid, inhospitable Greek islands, where many perish. Their crime? Being ethnic Macedonian by birth.

LAW 6429 reinforces Law 4096 on Hellenization of toponyms.

DECREE 87 accelerates denationalization of Macedonians.

Greek ministry of Education sends "Specially trained" instructors to accelerate conversion to Greek language.

1938

LAW 23666 bans the use of the Macedonian language and strives to erase every trace of the Macedonian identity.

Macedonians fined, beaten, jailed for speaking Macedonian. Adults and school children further humiliated by being forced to drink castor oil when caught speaking Macedonian.

LAW 1418 reinforces previous laws on renamings.

1940

39 more place-names Hellenized since 1929.

1945

LAW 697 more regulations on renaming toponyms in the Aegean Macedonia.

1947

LAW L-2 citizens suspected of opposing Greek government in civil War stripped of their citizenship, including relatives, arbitrarily and without due process.

1948

Kukush, Aegean MacedoniaLAW M properties confiscated from citizens who fought against government and those accused of assisting.

28,000 Child Refugees, mostly Macedonians, from areas of heavy fighting evacuated to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. Greece denies their right of return to this day.

RESOLUTION 193C(III) United Nations Resolution calls for repatriation to Greece of Child Refugees.

U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 19: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive an impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

DECREE 504 continues property confiscations of exiles and colonization of the Aegean Macedonia with people from Turkey, Egypt and other parts of Greece. Parcels of land given to colonists along with financial incentives. 1959.

LAW 3958 allows confiscation of property of those who left Greece and did not return within five years.

Several villages in the Aegean Macedonia forced to swear "LANGUAGE OATHS" to speak only Greek and renounce their mother tongue (MACEDONIAN).

1962

DECREE 4234 reinforces past laws regarding confiscated properties of political exiles and denies them right to return.

1968

EUROPEAN COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS accuses Greece of human rights abuses.

1969

COUNCIL OF EUROPE declares Greece "undemocratic, illiberal, authoritarian, and oppressive". Greece forced to resign from Council of Europe under threat of expulsion.

Military Junta continues the policy of colonizing the confiscated lands in the Aegean Macedonia. Land handled over to persons with a "proven patriotism" for Greece.

EUROPEAN CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS signed by Greece states: ARTICLE 10(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

1976

DECREE 233 suspends about 150 past decrees, government decisions and laws since 1913. Regulations for the confiscation of properties belonging to Macedonian political exiles not affected.

1979

135 places renamed in the Aegean Macedonia since 1940. The Greek vigil regarding names is an indicator of the Macedonian ethnic identity in the Aegean Macedonia.

1982

Greek internal security police urges intensive campaign to wipe out remaining Macedonian language and consciousness in the Aegean Macedonia.

LAW 106841 political exiles who fled during the Civil War and were stripped of their citizenship are allowed to return providing they are "Greek by ethnic origin". The same rights are denied to Macedonian political exiles born in the Aegean Macedonia.

U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 17, No one can be deprived of his own property against his will.

1985

DECREE 1540, Political exiles who fled during Civil War allowed to reclaim confiscated lands provided they are "Greeks by ethnic origin". Same rights denied to Macedonian exiles born in the Aegean Macedonia.

U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 13. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, as well as to return to his own country.

1986

International writers' organization, PEN, condemns Greece's denial of the existence of Macedonians and their language.

Greece escalates climate of fear in the Aegean Macedonia.

Greece officially calls the Republic of Macedonia as the Republic of "Skopje", after the name of its capital city; and Macedonians are called "Skopjeans".

The term "Skopjeans" used to label Greek citizens who declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians. "Skopeans" laced with hatred, and racism. It connotes a traitor to Hellenism.

1990

CSCE COPENHAGEN CONFERENCE ON THE HUMAN DIMENSION, to which Greece is a signatory, states in ARTICLE 32: "Persons belonging to national minorities have the right freely to express, preserve, and develop their ethnic, cultural, linguistic, or religious identity and to maintain and develop their culture in all its aspects, free of any attempts as assimilation against their will". ARTICLE 33: "Participating states will protest the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious identity of national minorities...and create conditions for the promotion of that identity".

GREEK HIGH COURT DECISION 19, refuses registration of "CENTER FOR MACEDONIAN CULTURE" in Florina. Appeal is turned down by High Appeals Court, in Salonika. Further appeal dismissed by Supreme Administrative Council of Greece in Athens.

1991

CSCE MEETING ON NATIONAL MINORITIES IN GENEVA, in which Greece participated states: "Issues concerning national minorities...are matters of legitimate international concern and consequently do not constitute exclusively an internal affair of the respective State...Participating States reaffirm, and will not hinder the exercise of, the right of persons belonging to national minorities to establish and maintain their own educational, cultural and religious institutions, organizations and associations".

Belligerent anti-Macedonian propaganda incites Greek population into a state of chauvinistic hysteria.

1992

Greece and Serbia conspire to overthrow and partition the Republic of Macedonia.

1993

Macedonian human rights activists Hristos Sideropoulos and Tasos Boulis were prosecuted under Greek Panel Code: Article 36, Para 191; disseminating false information; Para 192; inciting citizens to disturb the peace. Their crime? Declaring themselves as Macedonians in interview for Greek magazine ENA.

Macedonian human rights activist and priest Nikodimos Tsarknias derobed and expelled by Greek Orthodox Church because of his human rights activities. Tsarknias refused a Greek bribe which would have elevated him to bishop in 1989. Threatened with death.

1994

Extremists in Australia's Greek Community burn two Macedonian churches, after Australian recognition of Macedonia.

Greece continues to deny the existence of Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Greece continues repressive and unrelenting policies against Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia despite objections by international human rights organizations.
68. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:16 by George

Surely you can do better than being a cop & paste propagandist?

Oh btw you can take out the periods between 1913 to 1944, you were self declared Bulgarian. There is no Macedonian ethnicity on any official treaty, agreement or diplomatic paper signed by your ethnic group during this period. Simply because you did not exist as an ethnic group.
69. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:16 by mak-guy

george, I am ok with you guys. I have no problem with whatever you want to call yourself. I have problem with what you want from me - and that is not for sale nor giving. I don't want anything from you - neither the property I posses there (greece). Cheer up!

Having said this, it must be painful to watch yourself in the mirror every day - that nice tan and dark hair sure can be fixed - don't worry you are the Filiphos grand grand grandson with some sunburn. I accept that.
70. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:20 by George

I am sorry you need to get racist mak-guy.

But I can assure you I don't have dark hair.

You want to call yourselves after a Greek tribe. Then educate yourselves inline with what Macedonia really stands for.

Otherwise, VETO.

No skin off my nose, you are the ones with internal turmoil with the Albanian population.
71. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:21 by daniel

to mak-guy: another part of that agreement was that FYROM was to actively participate in finding a suitable and mutually acceptable name - but instead over a period of 15 years it has vehemently refused any compromise and has instead followed a stance of intransigence.

Instead of working with Greece, FYROM thought that it could hope the issue would go away by trying to get as many countries as it could to recognise its constitutional name... What about when FYROM UN representatives introduced the FYROM leader in the UN as the "President of the Republic of Macedonia"... How is this within the UN interim agreement?

Its position all along during these talks has been to "show to Greece the reality" (i.e. that the constitutional name is the only option)... FYROM needs to undertand that in reality their nation is not going to function as a viable state in the Balkans without the assistance of the euro-atlantic organisations. FYROM needs Greece to approve its membership - so FYROM needs Greece more than Greece needs FYROM.

It is time for FYROM to abandon their intransigence and think of its future as a nation and the future of its people.

What Greece has proposed is not by any means compromising FYROM's national identity or culture. Greece is not saying they cannot be 'Macedonians', Greece is saying they can be Macedonians TOO! but that 2.5 million Greeks are also Macedonians - and there needs to be a distinction because these two groups are very different both in terms of their culural ancestry and language.

Prepare for two weeks of political spin from both sides. From what I have observed in the stance of FYROM in the last 4 weeks is that they have progressively become less and less unwilling to discuss a composite name - which i see merely as a gesture to the international community to show that they have been accommodating and have tried their best to solve the problem.

This is how I see the next month playing out.

1. 2 weeks of intensive negotiations under UN/US auspices.
2. At least 2 more proposals will be put on the table (to which FYROM will show vague interest to put on the act like it really wants to solve the problem)
3. Ultimately FYROM will reject all proposals
4. Greece will veto FYROM's accession into NATO - after last minute failed efforts by the US to change Greece's stance. FYROM will be dumbfounded that Greece actually went through with their threat because we can all tell that they think Greece is all talk.
5. Croatia and Albania enter NATO
6. Albania will demand greater rights for ethnic Albanians in FYROM in order for them to approve FYROM's eventual accession into NATO
7. FYROM is in an even worse position than it is now.

This is of course assuming that there isnt another civil war in FYROM in the coming years.
72. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:36 by mak-guy

daniel, I agree with most of what you stated, except with your view of the development of events.

would you please re-read it and say it would be the same 15 years ago? honest?

So, you see , there is a progress. You have become more receptive to the reality.

One thing I really want to say is that RMacedonia exists because of Macedonians, not opposite. It really does not matter what and how the things are going to play - the people there will still be macedonians.

p.s. I really feel sorry for you guys that you will be forced to veto Macedonia entrance in NATO because you can not let all think Greece is all talk. It is really great reason, isn't it?
73. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:40 by George

I think you know perfectly well what the reasons are.

It's your irredentism and intransigence, if you really wanted to know.

Your expansionist maps in your schools and the mis representation of a personality which is alien to south slavs/yugoslavs.
74. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 12:52 by Daniel

Mak-guy,

I guess what I was trying to get across is that FYROM needs to assess their situation. They do not have the bargaining power to make absolutely no concessions in the name talks.

Greece has national interests to protect also and they will use their right to Veto for this reason alone - not because they just 'can' or because they dont want the international community to see them lose this argument.

FYROM needs to meet Greece half way on this. Both countries' best interest lie in a lasting solution.

P.S I agree Greece's initial stance to FYROM's declaration of independence was harsh and Greece has come to realise that if they do not compromise then they will be the ones that international pressure will exerted on (as is the case with FYROM right now with the latest proposals that "seem to favour the Greek position")

Furthermore there is no need to feel sorry for Greece when they eventually use veto - because ultimately the world will feel sorry for FYROM's position of intransigence - because that alone will be the downfall of FYROM.
75. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 13:10 by mak-guy

daniel - its true in all that you said.

The situation is not pinkish for sure for RMacedonia. I sense that name change is almost done deal.

And I have no beef with the final solution, I do not live there and I can not say what they should do.. I will be open and say that I will nod on the final solution. It will not change me, who I am, nor my family tree.

One thing I can say is the following: It will be tough sell in R.Macedonia. Depending of the wording and how it affects our identity it can go from 2 second fly, to civil war and terrorist acts. If the deal is going to later, please understand that veto is better then getting into nato. For us, at least.

p.s. thank you for being civilized and restraining from telling me what I should be - it really upsets me.
76. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 15:01 by the_end_is_near

If our prime minister sells the name not only he will burn, but greeks will burn, bulgarians will burn and everyone who denies MACEDONIA and MACEDONIANS will burn. Everything you did to us for centuries will return triple.
77. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 15:04 by Giorgos

I want to explain some things in order to make my position clear:
1.) I never said that people of FYROM are not Macedonians. They are as well as the GreekMacedonians or the Bulgarian-Macedonians are.
2.) Alexander the Great is Greek because history sais so, and trust me its not the history written from the greek state but eons bedore its creation.
3.) I never said that I am a descedant of Alexander the Great. If I had to choose be sure that I would like Perickles as my ascenstor.
4.) If FYROM wants to call herself Macedonia it is her right. But a state under this name will never join the EU or NATO because it is needed to have good relations with its neighbours
5.) I am surprised of that presentation of Balkan history in some comments. But probably they have no idea of how Balkan people are behaving all these centuries and they regard as natural that beeing Macedonian is the right only of ''Macedonians''...If it was so simple the Balkan Peninsula would be Scandinavia-like.
6.) I am surprised that whenever I post an article related to Macedonia almost 100 comments arrive from ''opressed'' people, with perfect knowledge of history and full of democratic sentiments.
Really when I post issues related to the quality of modern democracy and all these why I only get 0 or 1 comments? ???
78. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 15:32 by Mak

You are also pushing the FTROG (Former Turkish Republic of Greece) point of view by repeditely using the term FYROM instead of Macedonia!
IT IS MACEDONIA AND WILL ALWAYS BE!
79. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 15:40 by Gotse

Greeks say that the Macedonians a Greek, Bulgarians say that the Macedonians are Bulgarian, thats what happens when you take someone else's land, and the Macedonians say we always been Macedonian.

COMMON SENCE listen to the Macedonians cos we know our identity. We dont steal history from other countries like the Greeks and Bulgarians.
80. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 16:12 by sasko

we have nothing to prove to anyone i am macedonian my grandad is macedonian his grandad is macedonian as is my grandad's grandad my country is the republic of macedonia and it has always been whether in yugoslavia or not we have always been called macedonia and our country the republic of macedonia 120 countries around the world recognize the republic of macedonia i live today and i am not in NATO i lived yesterday and i wasnt in NATO therefore i will live tomorow without NATO so if you want to VETO macedonia's enterance to NATO you are welcome all that will achieve is pressure on your goverment and hostility in diplomatic relations with many nations around the world and also less macedonian solders will be deployed to fight in iraq nothing more will be achieved by a VETO greece does not scare macedonia we will not be bullied we will not give up time is on our side everyday more countries recognize macedonia
81. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 16:18 by freedom

I think the Serbian situation sould merit some thought. It was nationalism that took her down. Maybe one day the Greeks will unravel by western pressure.
Macedonians, never give up your fight for FREEDOM!
It is your God given.
82. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 16:31 by nashamakedonia

Greeks with a MERE one hundred year history as so called Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia should know this......TRUTH IS THE DAUGHTER OF TIME.
Your veto threat has done more to bring the truth to the world about the theft and hellinisation attempts on our nationality,people,places,history, artefacts, the list is endless ,than we could have ever prayed for.
I hope your veto threat is genuine,i hope your government goes ahead with it,for it will surely create such international interest that your government will finally be exposed.
King of Macedon has shown there are too many of your own documents showing the systematic destruction of all things Macedonian by the Greek government to ever deny that our Macedonian culture truly existed along with its people in Aegean Macedonia way before annexation to this current day.
You forced changes in peoples names!
how disgusting and dispicable is that?
think about that,The Nazis killed many many Jews but at least they died with their identities in tact.
The most dishounarable world event in the last 100 years of international history has to be forced changes to ones given and family names,you changed a whole culture.
Are you people for real?People had their babies christened with these names and you forced Greek names upon them,
how dare you! Now your at it AGAIN!!!!
83. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 16:51 by Spassov

FYROM should be made stop its ridiculous attemts to steal history from its neighbours Greece and even more so from Bulgaria.
History theft is Identity theft and is not a petty matter, it is a CRIME.
84. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 17:09 by nashamakedonia

Hey spassov,
havent you been paying attention........

ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND>>>

The documents are starting to find their way to the rest of the World, the real World, not the world you are living in.

TRUTH IS THE DAUGHTER OF TIME
85. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 17:19 by Truth Is The Daughter Of Time

nasha Makedonia

1920:
Professor R.A. Reiss reports to the Greek government: "Those whom you would call Bulgarian speakers I would simply call Macedonians...Macedonian is not the language they speak in Sofia...I repeat the mass of inhabitants there (Macedonia) remain simply Macedonians."

from your own Greek archives!

Your government is fooling you,as it fooled your fathers before you.

TRUTH IS THE DAUGHTER OF TIME!
86. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 17:31 by mak-guy

Spassov, why don't you get a gun and shoot us all?

Its a real solution for what you want from us - to stop existing.
87. On Wednesday, March 19 2008, 23:32 by adaniel

I think this debate is ridiculous. What if FYROM enters NATO under the name of New Macedonia and than a week after the accession it changes its name in the United Nations to Macedonia? The problem with naming things other than their names is that they don't stick - I don't know any European country where the people or the press or politicians would refer to Macedonia differently than Macedonia. NATO is a military alliance which would be more powerful if Macedonia joined. I think this naming game should not have an effect on NATO, and that is mostly the responsibility of the Greek government. Obviously, the Macedonian government should do anything to stop the Greek worrying about their identity and security, but I think these kind of absurd debates make Central Europe vulnerable.
88. On Thursday, March 20 2008, 04:02 by hristo

I forgot to mention - was Alexander's mother Olympia (sounds greek to me) was his teacher Aristotle (obviously greek). So does that mean that the skopjians want to claim Alexander as their own, even though he was greek? i dont understand? I thought one major legacy that Alexander gave the world was that he spread hellenic customs and language throughout the eastern world. if he was anti greek why would he spend his life promoting hellenism throughout the known world. ??? thats why its called the helleistic period you donkeys.....
89. On Thursday, March 20 2008, 05:45 by hristo

slav macedonians argue that the greek government changed their family names, if this is fact, then why do you people still carry your greek names. you all cry and argue, but continue using your so called forced names???
90. On Thursday, March 20 2008, 06:18 by K.

You want to get to know the Balkans? Read this whole hullabaloo here and you'll get the gist of it.

This is a fight of inferiority complexes, especially what the Macedonians do. People, just swallow it - Alexander the Great has nothing to do with contemporary Macedonians! It's so absurd to claim otherwise. It's ridiculous! It won't make you any better! (And, for the record, I'm not even Greek)
91. On Thursday, March 20 2008, 07:26 by Gotse

To hristo,

You say the mother and teacher of alexander the great were Greek but the father which is king Philip of MACEDON.
Not king philip of Greece is it.
92. On Thursday, March 20 2008, 08:32 by Australian

Republic of Macedonia since: 1944

The first plenary session of ASNOM was convened on the symbolic date of August 2 (Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising day) 1944 in the St. Prohor Pcinjski Monastery in modern Serbia, near the Macedonian town of Kumanovo. The most important assembly decisions are the proclaming Macedonia nation-state of ethnic Macedonians, proclamation of the Macedonian language as the official language of the Macedonian state. The citizens of Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic affiliation, were guaranteed all civil rights, as well as the right to their mother tongue and confession of faith.

Northern Province of Macedonia (in Greece) since: 1988

Greece did not refer to any part of its current territory as Macedonia until 1988, when Papandreou's government officially adopted the name Macedonia to replace that of Northern Greece.

WHO SHOULD CHANGE THIER NAME NOW?

Αθήνα - ''φραπέbabel'' - Comments

The ''Banana Republic''... - elate

Νέα Χρονιά- ολυμπιακή. Νέα Κίνα ; Μήπως νέοι Ολυμπιακοί ; Δεν νομίζω... - aleks

Δημοψήφισμα : θεσμός άμεσης δημοκρατίας ή εργαλείο πολιτικής εκμετάλλευσης ; - LT21

Νέα Χρονιά- ολυμπιακή. Νέα Κίνα ; Μήπως νέοι Ολυμπιακοί ; Δεν νομίζω... - Giorgos

Νέα Χρονιά- ολυμπιακή. Νέα Κίνα ; Μήπως νέοι Ολυμπιακοί ; Δεν νομίζω... - efthymaki