Athens ''frappebabel'' - Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Comments

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - HAF-Soldier

HAF-Soldier — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:54:51 +02:00

Elpizw na mh se peiraxe ayto pou eipa "And yes, Daskalos, before you ask, of course I was a kolo-visma! How else would I get to GEA"?

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:30:14 +02:00

Thank you, HAF-Soldier.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - HAF-Soldier

HAF-Soldier — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:01:11 +02:00

In response to post "4" by Daskalos.

I did my military service in the Greek Air Force in '98. Part of that was in GEA (Air Force Command for our non-Greek friends). I was down in KEPIX (Command Centre) and I was staring at that damn radar every day.

It is a fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those days, Turkish fighter jets invaded Greek airspace, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of those days, Greek jets invaded Turkish airspace. The numbers given to us on the news never had anything to do with reality. I used to laugh to hear the journalists shouting about 4 or 5 violations, when I knew that every day there were at least 10 from each side.

Not only that, but I was at 114PM (a base with Mirage 2000s) before I went to GEA, and I was in an office with combat pilots. They knew the Turkish pilots by name! They had all been to training courses in the US together!

It's just suckers like us, paying taxes to support our Armed Forces, who believe that there is any kind of real problem between Greece and Turkey. The politicians don't give a stuff who gets Cyprus, or a bunch or rocks in the Aegean.

And yes, Daskalos, before you ask, of course I was a kolo-visma! How else would I get to GEA ;-)

Peace brothers.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:32:38 +02:00

Once the EU acquis unites Turkey with the rehabilitated remnants of the Old East, then it will be the turn of Russia to become targeted by the European Union block.

These are in essence the borders of Rome, New Rome and Third Rome united under the European secular superstate.

The Churches will not quit their dogmas, but they will be forced to "unite in diversity", thus forging a European religious nation, used as an aid and stabilising factor of peace, prosperity and longevity.

These are difficult times for Turkey. Can they trust us? They sure have been stabbed in the back by all of us in the past.

In Europe there are two major dynamics. The integrationalists and the nationalists.

The integrationalists are those that are in peace with their European peers, by means of common heritage, traditions and values.

The integrationalists are also split between those who dare and those who don't. Those who dare, will embrace Turkey as an equal, and Islam as a guarantee of Europe's constitutional core (United in Diversity).

Those who don't, are content with Europe's potentially Christian Imperial stature.

The nationalists are the descendants of the racist, feudal rule over Western Europe. They influence the fearful integrationalists. They, collectively, are the establishment. They fear change, because change brings loss. They are also known as "Conservatives" for that reason.

The daring integrationalists are appreciative of the Ottoman contribution to the formation of their values. Thus, you will find that more people from the East of Europe will be content to live in union with the Turks. These people are known as "Socialists". Make no mistake, the numbers of true Socialists are shrinking rapidly.

The Socialists NEED Turkey, in order to overturn the balance of power in Europe.

Europe NEEDS Turkey, in order to remain democratic.

If Turkey does not join, then, be afraid, as the FEUDAL ELITE shall turn this continent into a playground of tyranny.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:57:26 +02:00

HA HA HA
take your antichrist and shove it MORON
AND YOUR CHRIST ALONG WITH IT

ha ha ha

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Steve

Steve — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:10:11 +02:00

EU is getting ready for a war in the Middle East they don't want the Turks part of the EU cos its a muslim nation.

The bible states that the anticrist will unite Europe, and its all ready happening.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 11:24:28 +02:00

Let me please add a few words on Cyprus, human rights in Turkey, and related issues brought up my Giorgos and Daskalos

There is no doubt that Turkey should respect human rights and should modernize its penal laws and systems. This will ultimately and mainly benefit the Turkish people. And of course, Turkey should accept European human values. Something that apparently she is willing to do.

But before we ask other people to do things, let's just look at ourselves: I'm witting these lines while listening to Greek TV reporting about the Turkish foreign minister visiting western Thrace. The media, unanimously, seem to condemn him for calling the Muslim minority there, “Turkish”. This is not only ridiculous. It's not even funny anymore. It is plainly and absolutely idiotic. We keep refusing to a number of individuals, citizens of a European nation, their right to call themselves whatever they feel like. And we do that in the name of some ambiguous, incoherent treaty, signed by the collapsing Ottoman state, in which the two sides agreed that in Greece... there are no ethnic Turks. Even at the time the treaty was signed, it was a joke. Now it is plainly ridiculous. Can you imagine, let's say, Greeks living in the US being denied their right to call themselves Greek. Or Greeks living in Botswana, for that reason.

And let's see now. We ask of Turkey to let the Chalki Orthodox School operate. And we are absolutely right in doing so. People should be free to exercise their religious preferences in any self-respecting democratic state. Besides, the Greek patriarchate has the right of existence authorized by firmans of Ottoman Sultans, beginning with Mehmet El Fetih (1451-1481) straight through to Mehmet Vahinedin (1918-1922) and Abdul Mesid (1922-1924). And the modern Turkish state should respect its past, especially since it claims to be the sole heir of the Ottomans. Even Selim the Second Yavouz, the Soth (1566-1574) - a renown enemy of the Christians – when he decided to close all churches in Istanbul and to force all his subjects to convert to Islam, even he yielded to his Vizier in the Divan, when he presented to him two old Janissaries, who were present at the Siege, and who asserted that Mehmet the Conqueror had promised to Patriarch Scholarios-Gennadios that the Patriarchate should be free to exercise it's powers to the Christians of the Empire, free of taxes and other obstacles, for all times. Not even the all-powerful ulema were able to hinder the patriarchate in Istanbul. The modern Turkish state should be ashamed in doing so.

But what about us, here in Greece? We have here in our country some of the most notable mosques in the Balkans, real architectural monuments, and we let them rot in obliviousness. At least two of them are works of the famous Ottoman architect Sinan (a great Janissary, probably of Greek descent). We don't even let the Muslims in Athens use the renown mosque in Monastiraki as a place of worship. Athens was until recently the only capital in Europe, probably in the world, with no mosque for its approximately one hundred thousand Muslim inhabitants. And I say until recently, because only last year one Saudi Arabian private citizen bought an old building in Athens and turned it into a mosque. But the Saudis are Wachabi fanatics and the Muslims in Greece do not need them. Are the Greek people proud of this situation? How do we feel about all this, as “Europeans” and fair nation?

Personally, I would rather quote again Elias Petropoulos, who said: “For the time being, I would rather be a Philellene than a Hellene” (dedicated to my friend Daskalos).

HA... Let's talk about Cyprus. I will not refer to the atrocities that some of our fellow... patriots have committed there against the Turkish Cypriot minority in the past. And I will not do that, not because I have forgotten, but because I don't want to stir up the old dirt. Besides, the Turkish army has called that quit. But I would like to refer anyone interested to the past of President Papadopoulos. He has been one of the worst EOKA B agitators ever. His past guaranties his future. And he is supposed to reunite the island !! I can't blame the Turkish Cypriots for being suspicious about this man. I wouldn't myself want to live in a country under his leadership!!

This is how it is. We should first shape up our own house here in Greece, before we demand that turkey does the same.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 01:35:46 +02:00

But they do have reasons not to do so, Zeus. I was hoping you would enlighten us a bit. You see, I was talking about the ELITE, the ones educated at Oxbridge, the UPPER CLASS.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:00:41 +02:00

To Giorgos
I'm trying to send a text and it will not be accepted. Am I doing something wrong?

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:56:07 +02:00

Let me please add a few words on Cyprus, human rights in Turkey, and related issues brought up my Giorgos and Daskalos

Personally, I would rather quote again Elias Petropoulos, who said: “For the time being, I would rather be a Philellene than a Hellene” (dedicated to my friend Daskalos).

This is how it is. We should first shape up our own house here in Greece, before we demand that turkey does the same.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:46:41 +02:00

To Daskalos
Because, at the end of the day, there is no such a thing as an educated British, French or German, at least not in the sense you are using the word, and if they do exist, they are hopelessly outnumbered

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:36:55 +02:00

Let me please add a few words on Cyprus, human rights in Turkey, and related issues brought up my Giorgos and Daskalos

Personally, I would rather quote again Elias Petropoulos, who said: “For the time being, I would rather be a Philellene than a Hellene” (dedicated to my friend Daskalos).

This is how it is. We should first shape up our own house here in Greece, before we demand that turkey does the same.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:35:51 +02:00

Let me please add a few words on Cyprus, human rights in Turkey, and related issues brought up my Giorgos and Daskalos

Personally, I would rather quote again Elias Petropoulos, who said: “For the time being, I would rather be a Philellene than a Hellene” (dedicated to my friend Daskalos).

This is how it is. We should first shape up our own house here in Greece, before we demand that turkey does the same.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:43:32 +02:00

Zeus

Let us assume that the common Belgian or Dutch does not feel particularly happy to the sound of a Turk sitting on the same table as him.

Why would the British, French or German educated, governing elite not want to sit on the same table with an educated, ruling Turk?

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Zeus

Zeus — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:31:35 +02:00

The future of European Union is in itself at stake.
I don't think Europe will ever be able to fulfill its role, political and economic, in the world if it insists on being a single-cultural and -religious entity.

Turkey must become a member of EU as soon as possible. This will benefit both Europe and Turkey. Europe will be able to prove that both Christian and Islamic worlds can coexist without prejudices and that the two cultures are really able to work and live together, contrary to some fundamentalists' views on both sides.

Turkey will prove to the Islamic wold that this is not a clash of religions or civilizations that we are actually facing, but only a clash of certain fanatical individuals on both sides

The question here is rather to what extend is Europe willing and able to play an international role, rather than a provincial, backstage support one to the current US geopolitical supremacy. This is something that will not last for long, and Europe must soon decide.

For me, as a Greek who has traveled and lived in many places around the globe, I can only say that between the two peoples and nations, Greece and Turkey, there is a close and unbreakable tie. One that you can actually sense in the air on both sides of the Aegean. Some say that Greeks are actually ethnic Turks, others claim that Turks are Ionian Greeks. History can not answer the question. And, who cares, really.

You ask about the real reason behind Europe's actual refusal to accept Turkey. To me it is clear: all you have to do is walk the streets of Paris or Berlin. Europe is anxious to keep it's “racial purity” and sixty million Turks are not at all welcome. This will not make the continent a power strong enough to play any international role. But most of the citizens of the “wealthy” nations in Europe don't seem to care about that. They are just glad to retain their high standard of living.

Deep down, we live in a society with many racial and religious taboos. And I'm afraid, we in Greece are trying our best to be part of it.

On the other hand, I wonder whether this racial-religious-economic club called 'European Union' is worth the effort of any self-respecting state to become a member. It is a “private party” we are having here, and any intruders will be discouraged. Besides, this is a club run by a whole army of highly incompetent bureaucrats that nobody elected or even approved of.

What a joke !

Actually the ONLY hope for Europe to become melting pot of cultures and peoples is for Turkey to enter the EU. I don't expect to see that in my lifetime

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:46:32 +02:00

With 52 million European Muslims living in Europe already, it is difficult to accept the argument which wants Europe to be a strictly Christian club.

Besides, the EU is a secular institution. Turkey is just another secular state that would add to Europe's tally of Muslim population, nothing more, nothing less.

By allowing Turkey to join the European Union, it is not the citizens of Turkey that would significantly alter the population map of "Christian" Europe.

Should Turkish migrants head towards Germany, the UK or France, these countries' immigration and employment laws would maintain a healthy and sustainable influx of Turkish workers into Europe, the same way they deal with Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian immigration.

The problem is not the Turkish legal system either. Everybody knows that Turkey has already joined the Council of Europe and is a signatory to the European Convention of Human Rights.

Further, Sharia Law is not applicable in Turkey, therefore, the average European citizen cannot speak of an Islamic State when referring to Turkey.

Some would say that the problem is in Turkey's imperialist attitude as evidenced in Cyprus, the rising levels of nationalism which killed Hrant Dink in January and beat up Andreas Robopoulos using wooden sticks today in Istanbul, the "deep" state run by the Generals who question the sovereignty of 2 EU member states, namely Greece and Cyprus and the excessive amount of onions used in Turkish cuisine!

In other words... Turkey is accused of the same things existing member states such as Greece, the UK, Germany or Bulgaria would potentially be accused of.

So, I wonder, what is the REAL reason behind Turkey's prolonged negotiation stage?

Any ideas?

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Özcan

Özcan — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:48:28 +02:00

Dear Giorgos and Daskalos;

I agree, Turkey and Greece must deal about Cyprus and armies shouldn't involve this process, and we shouldn't think Turkish soldiers in Island as threat to peace process.

Greece should soar the pressure on Mr. President Tasos Papadopoulas or isolate him. Rather than a president he Papadopoulos behaves like King of the Jungle. He is similiar to Rauf Dentash, former president and founder of Turkish Cyprus. Turkish goverment isolated Denktash in 2004 for an healty peace process. Also as you know there has been a 2004 referandum in both part of island. Turkish Cypriot part accepted UN's and EU propose at referandum.

Papadopoulos ordered to Greek people to reject the referandum and unfortunaly Cyprus voted against United Cyprus idea. On the other hand Turkish people of island accepted propose of referandum supported by UN and EU.

As politic leaders of Turkey certainly Erdogan and Gul can grant generals will remain compliant about law reforms. Otherwise any politic power will block the Turkey's way to modernite and democrasy must know society are against them. Turkey is not to much different from other countries of Europe. Turkey's most important difference from other EU members, is religion. If EU want to be isolated and remain as a Christian Club we can understand this. than its EU's choice.

Turkey will not be European after joining EU, Anatolian people are already European. Take a look to Anatolian culture, you will surprise after realizing similarities between Turkey and EU culture. Anatolio is an unique European geography harmonizing 28 nations, different and similiar cultures. Istanbul bosphorus is not cross line of Europe continent. Europe's border ends with Turkey's border to Caucasus and Mesopotaimia. Anatolian people will not be European after their country become member of EU, they are already European from birth and happy of being European.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Giorgos

Giorgos — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:45:38 +02:00

Hello..I also have some questions to make..

1. How Turkey wishes to enter in a Union without recognizing a member state (Cyprus) and while she has a casus belli in another member state (Greece) if she extends its naval borders to 12 naval miles according to the law of Sea? Turkey of course hasn't signed the treaty but almost all states had. And the weird thing is that Turkey uses the Law of Sea as an argument over the issue of

2. The suppresion of human rights is also a very big issue : why the orthodox patriarchate of Istanbul is not capable of training its own priests? Halki is closed in contrary to any international law. And really, I cant understand the hostility of Turkey to the Patriarchate. If Turkey recognizes its ecumenical character then a) it cannot be considered by anyone as greek patriarchate b) turkey will show the world that it is a western country that accepts the freedom of religion and that can be the headquarters of an ecumenical institution which after all is spiritual.
Furthermore, Turkey exiled all the Greeks of Istanbul which were protected by the Lausanne Treaty and the residents of Imvros and Tenedos which were also included in the Treaty.

I support the turkish candidancy as long as turkey respects what the Union demands. And if EU do not approve a Turkey tha in the future fulfills these criteria will cause a collateral damage to the identity and the political philosophy of the European integration.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Özcan Tikit

Özcan Tikit — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:19:17 +02:00

I agree with you about Cyprus but Greece shouldnt think Turkish soldiers in island as a threat to peace process. Greece should press on Papadopoulas and make him more ambitous for a solution or eleminate him. I think he is similiar to Rauf Denktash, former President of Turkish Cyprus, as you know Turkey and Cyprus eleminated Denktash.

As politic leaders of Turkey certainly Erdogan and Gul can grant generals will remain compliant about law reforms. Otherwise any politic power will block the Turkey's way to modernite and democrasy must know society are against them. Turkey is not to much different from other countries of Europe. Turkey's most important difference from other EU members, is religion.

If EU want to be isolated and remain as a Christian Club we can understand this. than its EU's choice.

Turkey will not be European after joining EU, Turkey is already European, Turkey mountains are part of Europe's mountain rage. Istanbul bosphorus is not border of Europe continent. Turkey borders with Caucasus and Mesopotamia are finish lines of Europe's geography. Unless Turkey become member EU, we wont feel like Asian or African, its not their choice Anatolian (geographical name of Turkey) people are European from birth.

Turkey : A threat to European Democracy or a threat to European Right-Wing Populism? - Daskalos

Daskalos — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:16:17 +02:00

Hi Özcan

I can see that you are a pro-European Turk, and most certainly an optimist and I appreciate your response.

About Cyprus, Turkey must deal with the issue pragmatically and in a European manner, should Turkey wish to join the EU in peaceful union with Cyprus. In other words, Turkey must withdraw unconditionally and allow Papadopoulos and Talat to discuss on fair terms and from a proportionate standing resolution to the dispute.

About "Ne mutlu Turkum diyene" and Article 301 of the Penal Code... Can (especially) Gul and Erdogan guarantee that the Generals will remain compliant to an amended Penal Code?

About the PKK, although I agree with you in principle that they have to disarm and stop all terrorist activities inside or outside the border, has Turkey ever shown any indication as to potentially granting partial autonomy to the Kurdish nation within the Turkish Republic or similar?

Greek nationalists may dream of capturing Istanbul, but they have never flown armed F-16's over Istanbul, have they? In contrast, Turkish pilots fly over the Aegean on a daily basis.

Without trying to be offensive, Özcan, the biggest obstacle that Turkey is facing prior to EU accession, is its unpredictability. Even if the Turkish Republic finally complies with the accession criteria, can you guarantee to me that the people of Turkey would actually be happy to join the EU?