Referrenda : a form of direct democracy or a tool in the hands of the government ?
By Giorgos on Sunday, November 25 2007, 01:19 - Debate on democracy - Permalink
The call for a referrendum is the most common demand of many social and political groups who demand direct democracy institutions and call the people to answer in a series of issues. However there is a lot of discussion on how much representative are the results and if they express the pure will of the people. Even thought referrenda seem to be a positive measure in order to make the system of government more direct, in my point of view referrenda can easily be manipulated from the government. The process - meaning the issue and the way it is given as a question to the people can influence the voters and and give out a result which will be in favor of those who rule. Then national referrenda in France and the Netherlands said a loud 'NO' to the European Constitutional Treaty. However, after the outcome many people and analysts supported that the people in these two countries said 'NO' not to the Treaty itself but to a series of domestic policy issues. The referrendum was for those people a chance to express their general agree or disagree over some governmential decisions and not a direct answer for the content of the Treaty. France voted NO to a possible accesion of Turkey in the EU and NO to president Chirac. The residents of the Netherlands where influenced from the french vote too. On the other hand, Spanish who voted for the Constitutional Treaty probably expressed their support to the newly elected government of Socialists if we take in mind the millions of books presenting the Treaty which were found in rubbish the day after they were given to the people. In Greece there is a proposal of referrendum over the issue of Macedonia and it was made from some political and social groups. According to their viewpoint people should answer if they accept or not a name for F.Y.R.O.M. which will include the term Macedonia. They claim that the vast majority of the greek people will not accept the term in the solution because of sentimental and historical reasons. According to my point of view this will make things worse because the result wont be a direct answer to the question of Macedonia but it will be used as a form of pressure to the Greek government for the general reforms introduced. So isn't it necessary to see how can referrenda will be made in order to express the pure will of the people?
Comments
France should recognize Macedonia by its constitutional name.
First, Macedonia exists for over 38 hundred years. Greece has no connection with Macedonian history. Greece has occupied Macedonia since 1913, read the Buchares agreement. Greece has hijacked the Macedonian history because their history starts as of 1829, before this date Greece did not exist, pure and simple.Does the world know history? Does Greece recognizes the 2 Macedonin monks from SalonikaCyril and Methody who gave the alphabet to milions of people? D0es Greece recognizes the Macedonian heros of 1903 like Goce Delchev whose hometown is just 38 km. from Salonica? The greek government should do what Gorbachov did in former Soviet Union in 1998 declair greek history falsified
s
First, Macedonia exists for over 38 hundred years. Greece has no connection with Macedonian history. Greece has occupied Macedonia since 1913, read the Buchares agreement. Greece has hijacked the Macedonian history because their history starts as of 1829, before this date Greece did not exist, pure and simple.Does the world know history? Does Greece recognizes the 2 Macedonin monks from SalonikaCyril and Methody who gave the alphabet to milions of people? D0es Greece recognizes the Macedonian heros of 1903 like Goce Delchev whose hometown is just 38 km. from Salonica? The greek government should do what Gorbachov did in former Soviet Union in 1998 declair greek history falsified
s
You are of course talking about the European Constitution Referendum and how it was manipulated by those with the most to gain by its rejection.
First, selecting National as opposed to Continental electorates shows just how much the rule makers distrust the ordinary person, the European Citizen whom after all are the parties to that contract and not their State Governments, as it now stands?
Secondly, not establishing clear criteria of proportion for the National Referendum resulted in a denial of the opportunity to consider its acceptance by the rest of the EU population, around 460 million souls, by the actions of less than 20 percent of the French and Dutch electorate.
Thirdly and in conclusion, the American Constitution framers stated that any that would deny freedom for security deserved neither.
The naysayers secured their power by robbing the rest of the EU citizens the opportunity to vote; and, today their own states are overrun by Moslems anyway.
Referendum, oh yeah!
Our European Constitution is still there, it did not go away and guess what? 19 member States have ratified it! So in reality it is in good health and ready for the day when democracy will again be allowed in our Union.
The odd behavior of the Greeks!
Well to an outsider it makes absolutely no sense at all. Macedon is MACEDON, what can you do about that? I say nothing.
If I were born in Greece I would by all accounts be Greek, but my parents are W Europeans. Would Greeks who complain about people born in Macedon being Macedonians now deny me my citizenship?
No.
So why cant you Greeks let go of the past, after all there isn't another Aleksander or Philip waiting in Bulgaria/Macedon preparing to shame your Demosthenes again.
Cant we all live in peace and mind our own business instead of constantly watching our neighbor and meddling with it's affairs.
Mr. P Givens,
Alexander spoke Polish and he believed in Irish Gods. Therefore, he was a Muslim Macedonian.
Ask yourself the following question?
If you were before Alexander and you told him that he wasn't a Hellene, what would his response be?
The problem with the Slav / Muslim Pseudo Macedonians is that they mistake geography with ethnicity.
Is there anything in common that the people of FYROM have with the Macedonians? Do we forget that Alexander spoke Greek,had Aristotle for a mentor and believed in the Greek Gods?
Further, if the Macedonians had a separate language, wouldn't there be at least ONE, just one, artifact indicating the same. . .just one - but everything is in Greek.
Also, for the Greek monks, they spoke Italian and the alphabet they gave to the Slavs was African-American.
Let's be serious now. . .since the people of FYROM want to deny the Greek influence on them, they should convert to Islam because Orthodoxy was established by the Greeks after the New Testament was written in Greek.
Alexander was King of Macedonia just like Leonidas was King of Sparta - but both were Greeks.
One thing is for sure, a modern Greek could have a conversation with Alexander and communicate. Could a Fyromese do the same?
First of all let me say that this section is over democracy !!! So, let dont mess up greek or balkan history with that. I will create another section which will be ''greek history'' and there you can post whatever you want over that issue.
Secondly, i reffered to the question of the name of FYROM as an example of manipulation over the referrenda and you can noitce that I was not reffering to the nature of the problem.
Mr. Givens, I don't know where you gathered all this piece of information but i would be glad to compare them with every piece of information found over the issue. And I would be glad to know how can Alexander the Great who lived 3 centuries B.C. can be a Slav while Slavs appearead in the Balkan peninsula the 9th cetury A.D. The Bucharest Treaty of 1913 reffers to the Macedonia region of the Ottoman Empire. And Cyril and Methodios werent Slavs because there was not any Slav church this time...They created the cyrillic alphabet! And a Macedonian can be Greek. As a Pomeranian, a Bavarian, a Prussian are all German...A resident of Macedonia is Greek as long as a resident of Peloponnese or Crete are Greeks..
greece had nothing too do with macedonia,they had no idea what was macedonia before 1991,after 1991 the independence of macedonia,thats when greece jumped and started claiming false history and propaganda,how can macedonia be greek when macedonia conquered greece,alexander the great did not understand the greek language,greece recognised macedonia as barbarians,now they claim its greek,i think greece is reacting childish and selfish towards the macedonians,the macedonians have every right too have there country as macedonia,no matter how greeks fight,macedonia will rise itself too the macedonians!
The father of Aleksander,Philip of Macedon was barbarized, and his mother of Illyria or todays Albania weren't Greeks either!
If he had no fame he would have made a sorry Greek in his day, and if you care to look at his images left us and reported fairly accurate, he does not look at all like a Greek!
But this page is not about that.
This page is about the ruination of Democracy by hasty and badly organized referendum which are destroying what little democracy we have in the EU!
Dear George I would like to send me any evidence of what you say and check it. Phillip was Greek as long Olympiada who was from Epirus. Olympiada is a greek name coming from Olympian Zeus and Fillip comes from ''filo''(love) and ippos (horse). Fillip is the one who loves the horses. Now if those two werent of greek culture how could they have greek names which etymologically proof that they spoke greek? Secondly, if you notice Hellenistic art you can see if Alexander has nothing to do with..unless if you think of the image of Alexander in the battle against Darius which unfortunately is of Roman times.. Thirdly let's make ''counter acting'' . If you were Dimosthenes, the Athenian orator who was against Fillip and you would like to tell something bad for him wouldn't you use the major fact that he was not Greek? There wouldn't be a biggest shame for any Athenian or Greek of this time to be ruled by someone non-Greek (barbarians as they called them). There is no such accuse of Fillip in his speeches....When Alexander sent from Granikos the 300 Persian shields to Athens he wrote ''Alexander of Fillip and the Greeks except the Spartans from the barbarian who inhabit Asia''. Had Alexander been not of Greek origin - and therefore consider as ''barbarian'' from the Greeks of his time would he used that term?
This ends here and we can continue in the other category!
Please don't be silly!
If Macedon were Greece then Aleksander would never have had need of Aristotle!
Besides, before those days, the Greeks - Hellenes - were colonizing Macedon with some difficulty.
It never did fully fall to them, so Macedon was as free of Greece after the colonies weakened as it had been before they begun.
If in doubt read what Aleksander did to the Greeks in the end of his days!
Now despite your remarks here and attempts to derail this debate, I am ending this exchange with the cameo that in England today, they say that a Macaca born there is as much an Englishman as a cow is a horse when born in a stable! Nothing was ever more to the front of the Greek mind as who was and whom was not a Greek. Aleksander was accepted on condition that he keep their rules - but he did not because he could not!
A king, Sir, is not a democracy
Goodbye
That's right, Mickey! You tell'em that.
Our beloved Queen has nothing to do with those ugly drunken chimps in suits that pretend to be the leaders of France and the United States.
Our Queen is as beautiful, stylish, vibrant and frothy as a pink martini coming out of a cocktail shaker.
These idiotic Greeks...tsk...tsk...tsk... When will they understand that they were the ones that invented Democracy, but NOT Monarchy.
Monarchy, inspite of the Greeksness of the word, is in fact a GREAT BRITISH discovery. No Kings have ever existed anywhere else in history, save for Alexander's British Macedonia.
Those poor Macedonians have been suffering under Greek, or is it Roman, or is it Serbian, or is it Bulgarian, or is it Ottoman or is it Yugoslavian rule BUT they still look like they know how to appreciate a good monarch... They must be the true heirs to the Throne of Macedon.
The Greeks, may well have been living in Macedonia, but, dear Lord, these modern Greeks all look like dark skinned gypsies, really disgusting, I'm telling you.
They've got absolutely nothing in common with the ancient Greek statues, which are examples of finesse and white supremacy.
I think that in Macedonia we've found somebody that actually likes us! Alexander, the Queen... see what I mean?
W@nker Mickey, I'm only taking the Mickey. Regards from Greece, "gia sou malaka".