Fighting for a historical relic..the modern Macedonian Question

You can also read

Comments

Daniel, Toronto | 1. Monday, November 26 2007, 19:40

As a student of ancient history, modern politics & with Balkan Roma ancestry, I commend you for disassociating the Macedonians from the regions historic past.

However, to be taken seriously, one must also assume that no one in the Balkans (no, not even the Greeks) can be connected to the regions past. After all, the same slaughters & migrations occured in Greece, as well as the rest of the Balkans. The difference is that Greece developed the falacy of an ancient connection a few decades prior with third party help inthe nation building process.

Other than the usual Greek arrogance (& ignorance) displayed in this article, the other main point of dissention is your attempts to associate the creation of the modern Macedonian identity with Tito. It seems you have not been objective enough to research the vast resources highlighting the development of a modern Macedonian nation long before Tito.

Or perhaps some mention could have been made to write of Greece's treatment of minorities, which Macedonians are included (as well as my own mistreatment as Roma).

A distainful article full of political rhetoric.

Ike | 2. Monday, November 26 2007, 20:07

Mr. Daniel,

Since you are a student of history, go to Google News and type "Greece." Use the time-line view and use the option to include dates prior to 1900. You will see it was the Greeks who spilled their blood going to war with Turkey to free Macedonia.

The Fyromese and certain Bulgarian segments claim a separate Macedonian ethnicity. . .they must have been in hiding for the last 2,000 years.

Macedonia is geographic region but ancient Macedonia Hellenized. Why is that difficult for the Salv and Muslim Macedonians to accept such a straight forward reality?

Daskalos | 3. Monday, November 26 2007, 20:10

I have to agree with Daniel.

Young Greeks, like myself, are very vulnerable to populist brainwashing, therefore, I will give Giorgos and Ike the benefit of years of populist indoctrination by PASOK, ND and the Orthodox Churches of Greece and the Diaspora before I finally pass judgement.

The Macedonian Republic, the one Greece and the UN refer to as the FYROM, did not try to pass itself off as the heir to ancient Macedon, not in 1903, not in 1913, not in 1944, not in 1991.

The Republic, in response to Greece's nationalist argument of "Hellenicity" or exclusivity of the Macedonian name, heritage and geography, post-1991 decided to counter-attack such nationalism using similar arguments, the ancient flag and the renaming of the Skopje Airport being part of the same policy.

The Macedonians are very much aware of their Old Slavic, Bulgarian and Albanian heritage, and they are proud of it. Some are very much connected with Greece and Greeks, and they are proud of such relationship.

What the modern Greeks need to understand is that, not only their ancestors are not even remotely connected with ancient peoples, but that their country and nation is the most archaeolpeptic and cryptofascist hyper-orthodox fundamentalist neo-nazi bunch of Christodoulian fanatics in Europe.

If we are as Greeks as we think we are, that is, European, modern, pacifist, diplomatic, then we have no choice but to accept that these "Skopians" are known to the world as Macedonians for as long as the Greeks are known as Greeks, that is, since the 19th century AD, not ...BC.

Ego Romios gennithika Romios the na pethano. Please, all Chrysi Avgi and L.A.O.S. ellinarades go make me a frappe, I am thirsty.

Metrio me oligon gala, na sai kala Stavro, ta resta dika sou.

Hank | 4. Monday, November 26 2007, 22:52

I have to disagree with Daniel and Daskalos since FYROM has no connection to the ancient macedonians, why do you allow them to use the hellenic name of macedonia?.

FYROM are a slavic tribe that have arrived in europe way after the death of christ. Allow the FYROM the use of the name, can claim the heritage of Greece and their rights of macedonia name. This gives the world a wrong message that any country can wrongly claim anything.

I am not of greek origin but can tell you that anyone that has studied or read any books about ancient macedonia, you would know that history does tell us the ancient Macedonia are of Greek origin. FYROM must accept that, and find an acceptable solution to their country name with Greece and end this stupid propaganda.

selimstan | 5. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:09

that's a good one! danny boy!
now i know why Romas remain illetarate and live in the dark ages. throughout the world! with 'students' like yourself, they will most likely remain so.
So, 'student of history', you think that nobody around here can be connected to the region's paet!
How about the greek language? did the greeks just learned it recently from your kind?? lol

How about the greek civilization that survived through the byzantine times right down to rainaisance and the modern times. Who did that danny? the... romas or the slavs? do you believe 'history student' that Pechenegs, skythes, slavs, Turks AND romas would be civilized if it was not for Byzanitne Greeks? It was the Greeks who civilized all these barbarians, they let them stay in the balkans, they used them whenever they needed them and they punished them when they had to. Maybe they ought to do that again.

Dr Selim Stanitsas

selimstan | 6. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:14

and one more thing, danny

Alexander the Great read the Iliad 'ek tou narthikos' (i hope you know what that means, 'student of history'), you just read it from any book you choose. Then you will know what is Macedonia and who has the right to call himself macedonian loool

selimstan | 7. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:19

one last thing

i can understand danny how you feel about minorities and their rights. After all you live in Canada!! Come to Greece an we'll give you a free education for you and your family. or better still, go back to India. There you will know how it is

Giorgos | 8. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:20

First of all, I never told that Greece has the exclusivity over the term ''Macedonia''. Had you read tha entry you would see that I propose a name which will include the name ''Macedonia'' because I can recognise to it a geographical term. I dont belong to any right or fasicst organization like L.A.O.S or Chrisi Avgi and If you don't mind please stop any of personal judgments or attacks.
The fact the FYROM begun to fabricate territorial demands over Greece and Bulgaria is a fact and I am very happy that they renounced their claims. I totally accept the term Macedonia as a geographical term which will be part of the name of the neighbouring country but I cant accept that a country demands the historical term. And this not only happens with Alexander but with Bulgarian history too where they claim that medieval king Samuel was Macedonian. In that way every inhabitant of Ancient or Ottoman Macedonia is ''Macedonian''.
Furthermore, I never reffered to any possible connection of modern Greeks to the Ancient Greece. From the view of political science I can see that Alexander is in the core of greek nationalism (of course the time it was made nationalism hadn't the meaning it has today). And I also agree with Danniel that the Greek state didn't treat well Slavomacedonians and Romas but I cant find a Balkan nation which treated well any minority at this time. Dear Daniel if you have anything which reffers to Macedonian nation before Tito please send me.

Giorgos | 9. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:26

And something more..when you judge somebody Daniel be sure you had made a comperative politics and history to see what the others have done at the same time. Thats the way to fully understand history. You can't judge the past with your viewpoint of today.

george | 10. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:44

How can Greece fall under all of these historic names and be all Greek eg.. Macedonia, Sparta and Thaice.
Thats why most of the History in the Balkan coutries is all mixed up cos the Greeks have taken some of that history from other regions and made it their's, like Macedonian history. When you look at India were it's one of the counries that Alexander the Great went throu, their history writes that Alexandre the Great was Macedonian not Greek. The Greek nation was created in 1832 before that it was known as Hellas, so you tell me.

Giorgos | 11. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:48

Greece is the term foreigners use to describe what in Greek is called ''Hellas''. We call Hellas our country not Greece. I cant understand why it is so difficult for some to understand that in classical times they were city states which were united under the reign of Alexander (even though they didn't like it that much ;) ). As a Pomeranian, a Bavarian, a Silesian all consider themselves as Germans even though they were different states with cultural differences.

Giorgos | 12. Monday, November 26 2007, 23:57

Τhe Macedonian royal house was called "Argeads" or "Temenidae". According to the tradition, the founder of the royal house Perdiccas - even if the name of the founder differs in reference with the ancient source used - along with his brothers, the "Temenidae" came to the place called Macedonia from the Greek city of Argos. These Temenidae were descendants of Heracles, through Temenus, thus they were called also 'Heracleids'.

Since the time of Alexander I, who was better known as the "Philhellene", Macedonian kings participated in Olympic games, which as we all know only Greeks could take part. The Argive origin of the Macedonian royal house was well-attested and widely believed both from Macedonians, as well as the rest of Greeks. Rifles like the political intricasies of Demosthenes against Philip is the tenuous exception to the general rule.Philip II, father of Alexander, was son of the Macedonian king Amyntas III and Eurydice, a Lyncestian princess. Lyncestians were incorporated earlier to Molossians, hence we could find them in ancient sources (1) as 'Molossian Ethne' or as Lyncestian Macedonians. A strong Illyrian influence can be recognised in the nearby Lyncestian kingdom but their royal house was widely believed in the ancient world to be descedants of the Greek Bacchiades coming from Corinth. Eurydice was daughter of a Lyncestian princess, daughter of Arrabaios, king of Lyngos and Sirras - a person shrouded in great darkness - since his ethnicity is obscure. There are conflicting theories which identify him either as Illyrian or as a native Lyncestian.(2) We can only conclude, Philip's greek ancestry is proved beyond doubt by the traditions of the greek royal houses both in Macedon and Lyngos.Now we will analyze the lineage coming from the mother of Alexander, the Molossian Olympias. Her original name as a child was called Polyxena and then, at marriage, Myrtale; later in life she was also known as Olympias and Stratonice.(3) Τhe name Olympias was given to her, according to the tradition, after her husband Philip won in Olympic games.

The members of Molossian royal house , the so-called 'Aeacidae' thought of themselves as descendants of Acchiles' son, Neoptolemus and Andromache. They both took refuge in the area in the aftermath of Troy's fall. Their son was Molossus, the founder of Molossians. Olympias herself, was daughter of Neoptolemus, king of Epirus and most likely of an Epirotan woman, Anasatia. (4) In the early 6th century, the tyrant of Sicyon Cleisthenes wished to find a suitable husband for his daughter Agariste. He invited "the best of the Greeks" in order to decide which one would marry his daughter. Among the Greek contestants was the Molossian king Alkon. Conclusion of the above is that the members of the Molossian royal house considered themselves as Greeks and were viewed as such by the rest of Greeks.

[1] Hecataeus
[2] Kapetanopoulos 'Sirras - Eurydice'
[3] Waldemar Heckel "Who's Who In The Age Of Alexander The Great: Prosopography Of Alexander's Empire" p. 181
[4] Favorinus ap. Jul Val 1.7 (frg. 49)

Daniel, Toronto | 13. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:05

The fact that Mr. Selim (carrying the name of an Ottoman Sultan?) has so elequently suggested that I go back to India, my roots are in the Balkans like yours (although, it seems that your Greekness has been imposed on yours as well Selim, masculine, Turkish form of the arab Salim). Who cares of Alexander? Your blood, along with theirs are mongrel comparedto his after 2 millenia under foreign rule? In Greece, this moron can obtain a doctorate?

Giorgios, since the only real issue I had with the article pertaining to Macedonians is your misconception of Tito 'creating' the Macedonians of today. Here is what you asked for dated 1925: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...

However, again, I commended you for disassociating them from the likes of Alexander. My issue with your article is that it carries an aura of righteousness based on some concocted Hellenic megalomania that you are ancient & they are not (the fact is modern Hellenism was created by third parties as a way of uniting a plethora of nationalities under one banner to combat Ottoman Turkey).

But none the less, the Greek persistance today of a compound name to distinguish a geographic region is relatively new. Perhaps some of the xenophobic & completely irrational reactions on the part of the Greeks & their government may have been mentioned as well? After all, this 'willingness to compromise' is a relatively new phenomena in this debate.....is it not?

selimstan | 14. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:09

AND one last free lesson of history. This one addressed to george (whatever) looool

george, my boy, apparently your knowledge of history is as bad as your geography loool

Sparta is a town in Peloponese (like, let's say Bobmbay in India), Macedonia is a province in Greece (like Udra Prandesh) and Hellas or Greece is the same country. Greeks call themeselves Hellenes and their country is Hellas.

And, Gerorge my boy, peoples with long and important historical backrounds, like the Greeks, assimilate, accumulate and intergrate several reigional and intraregional names.

And, by the way, the name Greek was given to Hellenes by the Latins (Petrarch was the first one to use it) after some mytical tribe that supposetly lived in Ipirus.

So, george, now you know better than asking these stupid questions.

george | 15. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:14

Eygept, Italy and Turky also Know in the era of Alexander the Great as Egypseans, Romans and the Ottomens. All 3 nations in the present have recognised the Macedonian nation and all 3 nations have deep history with the Macedonian people back in the Alexander's era. So who do i belive, not you Giorgos you make your own history the way it suit you.

selimstan | 16. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:17

Oh, george, my boy, i forgot to tell you about Alexander the Great:

He was greek, spoke greek, he waas educated by Aristotle and lived in a province of Greece called Macedonia.

He was to Athenians, what Californians are to New Yorkers: despeakable, arrogant, neuvelle riche, but... greek all the same

How stupid and ignorant can you be, george!!
Have you been to elementary school yet?

Dr Selim Stanitsas

selimstan | 17. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:28

Oh geirge...
so much laughing is a bit too much loooool

it's "Egypt", and "Turkey"

and, as far as i know, there is no such a thing as "Ottoman state"

BUT, george, in case you are Turkish, which i think you are, take a look at Sultan Mehmet's firman from 1458, five years after the taking of Instabul: There he concedes the christian inhabitants vilaetie of Macedonia under the power of Patriarch Gennadios Scholarios.

I guess El Fetih Mehmet new his history better than you george lllllooooollll

Dr, Selim Stanitsas
PS. No more free lessons for you george, from now on you'll have to pay

Giorgos | 18. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:28

Please can we stop personal attacks? What we do is debating on the issue with proofs! Daniel, I dont have any megalomania that my people are more ancient or more important than others. Thanks for the criticism but my thesis on the issue remains the same not because I am greek but because it doesn't make any sence that a small country claims the history of a people who lived eons before them and are not related to them and now they want to take also tha name of a geographical area...I would do the same in any other case and i would write the same for any other people!

george | 19. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:31

All i can say is history is about to repeat its self, over 120 country's have recognized Macedonia and all of these country's have their own verson of history in their own arcives.
You can say that i'm uneducated but can you tell these 120 countries that theis verson of world history is lies. Time to wake up and see the real truth you can do this yourself by looking in arcives outside greece.

Giorgos | 20. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:40

My dear George, the fact that 120 countries recognized ''Macedonia'' doesn't mean that they recognized that they are descedants of the Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. Politics have nothing to do with the study of history and morality. Let me ask you something : What do you thing about Aristotle? Of what nationality is he to you?

selimstan | 21. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:47

giorgos,

we don't practice "personal attacks" against anybody !!

but I AM FIGHTING against ignorance and stupidity. Two elements that beat malignance.

As for you giorgos, you claim to be greek, but obviously you are as ignorant as many in your country:

The modern Greek state - which was created to satisfy the greed of the Big Powers in their effort to controll the remains of the great Ottoman Empire - DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT, include but a small percentage of Greeks in the area or in the world. They are at least thirty million greeks living in Asia minor and the Balkans. They are of Greek origin, most of them speak greek as an ethinc language. Another gigty million people of greek origin live around the world, from Australia to Canada and from "Megali Ellada" to Vaktriani (you know where that is, giorgos, don't you? If not ask somebody).

So giorgos stop insulting yours and our intelligence by saying that yours is 'a small country'. It is small state but with a huge historical backround and a hell-of-lot of responsibilities.

Dr. Selim Stanitsas

selimstan | 22. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:54

to the remark that 120 countries have recognized FYROM as "Macedonia"

This is like saying: Five trillion flies eat shit, there must be something good in it, so let's eat it too

george | 23. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 00:57

All i can say is my Great grandfather came from the region of Macedonia the greek part of Macedonia. In 1913 he was told to change his sirname and to speak greek from that moment on. My grandfather 2 days later got kicked out of Macedonia by the Greek army and was told not to ever came back or all of his brothers will be killed ( his 2 brothers accepted the terms of the Greek army). My Grandfather made a new home in Canada and till today the Greek Government does not let him return to see his 1 brother left.
My grandfather is 98 years old. He was 6 at the time and came to Canada with his dad and his 2 brothers were left with his mom, his mom was greek of origin.

It's got lot to do with politics.

Giorgos | 24. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:02

Did I say that Greece is a small country? Of course I dont ignore all these millions abroad and their importance for the Greek State..Greece is a cultural superpower even though many dont like it. Of course the area of the Greek State is a result of treaties formed by the superpowers and of course this don't include many greeks. I don't think we disagree in anything.

Giorgos | 25. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:05

George, I said politics has nothing to do with the STUDY of history not the CREATION of history. Politics create history but when you mess politics when you study history is a different thing. And I want an answer for Aristotle. You regard him as a Greek or not?

george | 26. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:06

Why do most Greeks think that they are pure breed, some even say that their upto 98% greek?

Giorgos | 27. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:08

What you are telling me is different from what I ask. If they ask you when you walk if you know the birthplace of Aristotle what would you say?

george | 28. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:11

Macedonian

selimstan | 29. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:11

yes, george, this is a tragic story.
I realize your point here.
Those were bad times and bad people usually prevail when things are bad.

But, as i said, the greek state is not in the least the only representative of Greeks around the world.

And since you were born in Canada and your grandfather is there for so long, apparently you are all Canadian citizens, you don't need anybody's permission to come to Greece and visit whoever you want to.

selimstan | 30. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:11

yes, george, this is a tragic story.
I realize your point here.
Those were bad times and bad people usually prevail when things are bad.

But, as i said, the greek state is not in the least the only representative of Greeks around the world.

And since you were born in Canada and your grandfather is there for so long, apparently you are all Canadian citizens, you don't need anybody's permission to come to Greece and visit whoever you want to.

george | 31. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:14

Doctor good to see you again? let me ask you one thing, Are you 95%-100% greek?

Giorgos | 32. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:18

All people in the Balkans have tragic stories. My mother originates from Smyrna (Izmir, Turkey) and they were refugees in 1922 when the city was burnt from the Turks. My great grandfother was killed there from Turks. This doesn't work. We cant think of the past all time when living in the present. I went in Turkey i found the house of my family but I cant accuse all the time the Turks. But when they say that the Greeks burnt Izmir how can I agree. Some things are matter of justice. And as for Aristotle he was Greek as Alexander was Greek. Go ask any professor in any university and you will get the some answer. This has nothing to do with how pure a nation is. This has to do with historical justice.

selimstan | 33. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:18

ha ha
i am not Greek
i just study greek history, all my measerable life

one last thing:

Aristotle was born in Stageira, a small town in Chalkidiki, which was a colony of Andros (Andreuon)

The family of Aristotle was from Andros

george | 34. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:25

To Doc. you are a Greek with a Greek sirname.

selimstan | 35. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:31

george, i am not greek. I am an Arab temporarily in Greece. AND, besides, i am a Muslim. How can a Muslim be greek ??
lol

And just between us, George, if you were in Canada you would spell "surname" correctly

looool

george | 36. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:38

Exaple: The romans were very powerful at one stage of history, the conqured parts of the world so did the egypians and so and so..... They all had one name romans were the romans.......But when it cames to Alexander some books say he was a Macedonian warrior, some books say he was a Greek warrior, And some book say he was a Macedonian warrior with Greek army, some books say he was a Greek warrior with Macedonian legons and so and so.........................................................................................................................................................................Alexander was a True Macedonian warrior with legons of Macedonians with some Greek army. In the end it was the Greek army that poisioned him and 2500 years later you claim him as Greek.
Even in Hollywood when they made the film about Alexander it was a flop becouse it was all lies in the film

selimstan | 37. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:52

ok george,
let me put it this way:

I am an Arab, my father was from Syria, my mother from Lebanon. I've lived and taught in the United States, in Egypt, in Greece.

I speak perfect Greek. I know the history of Greece (better than most greeks, i'm afraid lol) and usually people think i am Greek. I actually fooled you, and you thought i am Greek!!

Does all that make me greek? it sure does. Because as Isocrates said two thousand three hundred years ago (he was an Thenian orator - politician - around 300 BC, at the time when Alexander died): Ellines eisin ouxi monon oi Ellines to genos, alla oi tis ymeteras paidias metexontes, which translates to : Greeks are not only those born in Greece, but all those whoo share greek culture.

So, george, we are all greeks. In one way or another.

An by the way, the issue whether Alexander was greek or not, is nothing new: In ancient times, the Athenians debated over exactly the same issue. loool

AND finally, the hollywood film was a flop, not because it insinuated that Alexander was greek, but because it presented history in a distorted way.

george | 38. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 01:57

The whole history about alexander is distorted becouse the greek made it that way.

selimstan | 39. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 02:16

your logic is biased and your arguments are not sufficient, George.

Brush up your history and you will find out why.

And mind you: i'm not saying that all contemporary Macedonians are greeks, nor that the whole geograpical area of Macedonia is or should be greek. I'm just saying what history compells us to say: Alexander and the macedonians were greek and the name Macedonia is a grrek - not a slavic - name.

That much, even the government of Fyrom has accepted.

Good night and
all good to you

john | 40. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 06:02

What a completely biased and pathetic article. It should be removed immediately.

If anyone's history is in doubt, it is the "greek" history and ethnicity.

"greece" has nothing to do with the ancients. They are ethnic Turks, Albanians and other assortments.

Macedonia has more of a right to ancient Macedonians and the Macedonia name than "greece". They can only claim the Sultan as their brother.

Stefan | 41. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 07:28

The problem with these debates is that emotion always gets in the way!

When the Slavs entered parts of Europe in the 6th century AD they merged with the ancient Macedonians, who, although they had many similarities to the Ancient Greeks, did consider, and were considered, a seperate people with their own customs and dialect (hence why so many Greeks fought on the Persians side against Alexander).

Over the centuries the bloodlines were mixed and a national identity emerged in that region that was Macedonian. The language was predominantly Slavic and the religion Orthodox. It was this Macedonian identity that saw the formation of the world's first terrorist group, - IMRO, who fought for an independent Macedonia in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

The problem now is that there is a large minority of Macedonian people in Northern Greece who are discriminated against by the Greek government, - as they fear that they will try and link up Northern Greece with Macedonia the ex-Yougoslav republic.

This is the most serious issue and should be addressed first! What the Greek government is doing has been condemened internationally. International Human Rights groups, Amnesty International, etc (who are all neutral, independent organisations) have all issued reports stating that the Macedonians in Northern Greece cannot speak their language, suffer beatings, must change their names etc. If the Greek government is right then every other world body is wrong... hmmm

It's time the Greeks treated their minorities correctly. The Greeks are the first to jump up and down about the treatment of their population in 'Northern Epirus' - Albania.

The Macedonians now are not the same as the Ancient Macedonians, but neither are the Greeks. However, Macedonians exist and have done so for hundreds of years and the Greeks must not deny their existence - a severe breach of human rights. I encourage Greek people to question their government and look at the evidence from neutral non-Greek and non-Macedonian organisations. Read books about the Macedonian history from foreign authors etc...

It is sad to see how so many people get swept up in nationalism that they allow themselves to be brainwashed by their government's propoganda. That is why you must look outside in order to gain critical perspective...

eureka | 42. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 07:34

I would like to post one comment and start by saying I'm a fan of ancient Greece and all the great contributions to this world.

I think what happened to Macedonia was a nothing short of guilt by assossiation. After the breakup of the Ottaman empire, the world stage was only concerned about carving up the pieces of the pie so to speak. It was in the best interest of the British to secure the mediteranean sea trade and "Not" give the Russians the upper hand. By creating a large Greek state and incorperating the southern part of geographic Macedonia (which is the richest in fertile land) in turn layed the foundation for a well functioning state. Now the modern Greek nation has become Frankensteins monster. Identical to the Albanians, and Serbians. What is it with nationalism in the balkans. They cant seem to get out of the Feudal age. I thought the Greeks would be leading by example by it seem they are nothing short of the same.
Here, more than any other place in the world, learn from your past, and move the balkans foward! Those Macedonians have suffer plenty and don't deserve whats happening to them.

Dimos Georgios | 43. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 11:20

Appian's History of Rome: The Macedonian Wars ,Appian of Alexandria (c.95-c.165)
Macedonians never was a Greek and Alexandar the Great was Macedonian not Greek.
SLAVES or SLAVIC peoples are Macedonian colony in Russia established due Roman/Macedonian Wars around 150-200 c and around 600 c -700 c they back to Balkans
Slavic peoples are ancient Macedonians.
If the Modern Greece recognize Macedonians in Greece,Republic Macedonia can not keep this name.But if Greece do not recognize Macedonian in Greece ,Republic Macedonia is reality for us like Greeks.

selimstan | 44. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 12:03

right, you are John loool
it is pathetic to say that modern greeks have nothing to do with the ancients. They just speak their language, practice their culture and even have their DNA.

And that is all out of the blue looooool

As for the Turks, you are right again. Most of the Turks are ethnic Greeks anyway.

Yep, i understand the menace of some "civilized" barbarians like yourself, against a people who carry such a long and glorious past. I even understand your... history. What i am amazed at is your remark that 'this article should be removed' etc.

Or maybe you are right again: it is a waste of time to try to talk to Pechenegs. The byzantines had found that out, a thousand years ago. looooool

As for you Stefan, i would suggest you do exactly what you urge other peple to do: read some outside literature, outside your distorted ethinic-based, ex-communistic, propaganda, that is.

And please, enlighten me: where is all this condemnation of Greece by the international organizations? i haven't seen any of that recently. Nor have i seen anything vaguely suggesting of 'a large "macedonian" minority in Northern Greece'. Stefan, this is wishful thinking,

Nor do i see any historic proof for your claims about 'the macedonian melting pot'.

But again, the slavs need another thousand years to mature and the Byzantines did not finish the job. As i said, maybe modern greeks should undertake the task.

One last remark to John's about the Sultans. You are absolutely right on that John. The Slavs are definetely entitled to claim the Sultans as their brothers: The first - and best - fighters of Sultan Mehmet's army were Slavs and they were the first to enter Constantinople after the Siege. And the young men in the jeni ceri army were recruited - mostly with their own will - from the Slavs in the Balkans.

And reffering to Greece in quotation marks, reminds me of the Germans and "DDR". Apparently this is where get your ideas looool.

That's a fine way to co-exist and bring te region forward in the future.

Daskalos | 45. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 12:36

To Hank

Even if Macedonia claims Ancient Greek Heritage, is not Greece claiming Ancient Greek heritage?

The modern Greek population, like you and me is a genetic admixture of Greeks, Old Slavs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Armenians, Jews, Roma, Vlachs and Romans.

The modern Macedonian population make-up is identical to the Greek.

What differs is the type of indoctrination. Jozip Broz Tito, Gotse Delchev and Kirste Misirkov v Ioannis Metaxas, Kotsos Vasilias, Papadopoulos kai Archiepiskopos Serafim. Katalaves filarako?

To Selim

Since when one's profession equals acquiring nationality and citizenship? You've split your molukhia, Selim - too much garlic and only a hint of kusbarah. Tsk tsk tsk.

To Giorgos

What gives the right to Mr Selim to claim Ancient Greek ancestry? His right of self-determination. Similarly, our multicultural Eastern Roman ancestors (Romioi) became "Greek" or "Hellenes" because they were dazzled by the history of the extinct ancient Greeks, encouraged by the Orthodox Patriarchate of Istanbul and the Fanariote Diaspora.

Ore katakaimeni ROUMELI ti sou'melle na patheis...

The Macedonians are known as Macedonians because...go read "Vios kai Politeia tou Alexi Zorba" and find out for yourself. And do not forget... "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development".

The above principle (see ICCPR or the UN Charter) is the cornerstone of our Western Civilisation and Democracy.

When this right is being denied, then, there can be no explanation for such denial other than fascism. Not even...Greece has the right to deny anyone's right of self-determination, unless it thinks that being Greece means that our country is above the laws of the International Community.

Daskalos | 46. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 12:52

To Stefan

When will you understand that the ancient Macedonian or the Hellenic heritage is WORLD heritage, rather than modern Macedonian or Greek?

Who told you that your Great Great Grandfather Stefan Dusan or indeed Boris the Second had intercourse with anyone other than Greek-speaking Orthodox Romans? The Macedonians were extinct by the time the Old Slavs arrived in the South Balkan peninsula.

Us Greeks recognise your right to call yourselves Macedonians - we know, however that you are not even remotely connected to any Philips or Alexanders, but rather to Misirkov, Delchev, the Gemidziji, the IMRO and Commintern.

Don't waste your time deluding yourself with Risto Stefov's and Aleksandar Donski's lies.

I suggest that you read Ljupco Georgievski's book "Facing the truth", available in Macedonian and Bulgarian Cyrillic.

selimstan | 47. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 12:59

one LAST word to Danny

If making smart-ass remarks about my..."blood" makes you feel better, go right ahead. I will not follow you. Maybe your therapist should.

And my name, don't let that bother you. You can call me anything you like, even moron looool. Just keep in mind that my doctorate was obtained - long time ago, i'm afraid - in the US, from a most reputable institution of highest learning.

Just one remark: I never said anything about 'pure blood' or any such nonsense. And yes, ethnicity is not a matter of genes, but of memes.

But i still feel i should apologise to Romas for my remark about going back to India. it was not meant literally, of course

selimstan | 48. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 13:13

To Daskalos
"Daskale pou didaskes kai nomo den tirouses"

It is not my profession that gives me the right to proclaim myself as Greek, but my "right of self determination".

As for citizenship, i don't need it. "I don't fear anything, I don't expect aything, I am free" (you know who said that, dont't you?)

Otherwise, i agree with you totally

Oh, about garlig. It's good. You should try it sometimes. Olo makaronia kai patates, souvlakia kai gournopoulo it's bad for your health

Zlatko | 49. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 13:28

Hi everyone,
I was reading most of this comments and I can only say that the people that are declaring as Greeks are only trying to defend the theories and propagandas as they have been trying to do so for 100's of years.
They are desperate to make the world to believe that there are no Macedonians and that there is no Macedonia as they where trying to do with Alexander De Great. As they could't do that to him they were thrying to make him a Greek.
As a result of their fascism, the Macedonians started declaring as Macedonians everywhere in the world and in the "Greek" "Macedonia". But unfortunately they are still not recognised as a nationality in Greece and cannot form a political party.
They cannot bare the fact that the Macedonians are now recognised as Macedonians in the world, and even have their own country, which they see it as a threat! - Mad!
They just need to remember that they cannot destroy a nation. That was never done by force in the history, and can never be done in future.
The Macedonians were a nation and had a country even when the "Greeks" were small cities and fighting between each other.
You cannot ignore a nation!

Daskalos | 50. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 13:33

Salam Selim

I know that your right of self-determination prevails over your profession and academic standing. I accept your right to identify as Greek.

I like garlic very much. And spices.

Kazantzakis paid the price for being too honest. I am not as honest as Kazantzakis.

selimstan | 51. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 14:06

To Zistko

Oh dear !!

here we go again

reading the postings is just not enough Zistko loool

you got to be able to understand them too.

Nobody is denying you the right to exist as Macedonians, but Macedonia is a wider region, much wider than your pitiful little "nation". The quetion here is whether you can keep on claiming sole pocession and we don't think you can,

And speaking of minorities, how do the Albanians and the Bulgarians in FYROM feel about "Macedonia"?

And a free piece of advise to you: don't talk about Alexander. Follow the example of your political leaders. The more you talk about him the less credible you become. Or I should I say the more rediculous you sound.

Giorgos | 52. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 20:59

I have heared many things about this issue but the most funny was that : ''If Alexander was Greek he wouldn't need Aristotle''? Aristotle was from Mars? I cant understand why to these ''progressive'' people Aristotle is Greek and Alexander who is from the same kingdom is Macedonian? The other funny thing was that ''The greek army poisoned Alexander- so he is Macedonian not Greek''...according to this all the Athenians who forced Socrates to drink the conium or who killed their generals including the son of Pericles are not Greek ! lol
And of course according to the right of self determination Mauritania for example can call herself France because it was colonized from the French and right in the school books that Alsace or Cote d' Azur are parts of Mauritania. And stop this ridiculous thing over DNA..I never claimed that Greeks are of pure blood-no nation is of pure blood. What I say is clear and indipendent of history. FYROM cannot monopolize a name of a whole region, cannot claim land belonging to other neighbouring countries and make propaganda in the school books about ''parts of Macedonia that are occupied'' and no matter the historical connection, a people who appeared the 9th century AD cannot claim the symbols and the history of a kingdom that existed ceturies before they appeared. And pardon me you are not fascist when you claim that!

Daskalos | 53. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 22:53

Giorgo

NO COUNTRY in the WORLD has ever tried to name itself after another country.

That includes the Republic of Macedonia. ROM have NEVER attempted to name their state after anyone's country.

For the avoidance of doubt, our country is known as Greece, Hellas, Hellenic Republic, Yunanistan, Xi La, but NOT as Macedonia.

Self-determination has nothing to do with regional administrative identification.

A quick search in...Wikipedia will confirm to you that Britain is a state, and Brittany in France is a region.

Ireland is an independent Republic that shares its space with Britain.

Luxembourg is a region whose territory is shared by Belgium, France and Germany.

There is simply no excuse for Greeks to continue being nazis either in the male (Samaras) female (Bakogianni) or gay (Karamanlis) form.

If the Macedonians suffer from historical amnesia and they think that instead of being a multi-ethnic state whose population is influenced historically by Bulgaria and Serbia, they are the descendants of Aleksandar Makedonski Veliki then, let it be.

Stous trelous leme panta NAI.

If they think that they can attract tourists into their country by posing as the part of Macedonia that gave birth to Alexander, then they will damage their reputation and ultimately their businesses will go bust.

Their con campaigns will function as free advertising for the Northern Greek provinces of Macedonia (West, Central and East).

If they think that they are justified in attacking Greece in order to fulfill their irridentist dreams of capturing Greek Macedonia, then we shall chop their bollocks off and give them to the Albanians as a gift. I don't think that they have the bollocks to attack anyone, let alone Greece.

So, what is your problem if not the fact that you simply cannot accept that your "Hellenic Ego of superiority will be struck by some impoverished Slavic imposters from the Balkans".

Do not forget, Giorgo, that our country is also a semi-impoverished nation of villagers and urban scavengers, drug dealers, smugglers and mafia pimps, just like any other country in the Balkans.

Our country is in need of a wake up call, not yet more archaeoleptic daydreamers.

ΞΥΠΝΑ ΒΑΣΙΛΗ!!!

Macedonian | 54. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 23:30

To Giorgos:
If we can,t look at the past,what,s past now in 1922 was present for your family.I regreat what happend to your family,however,many people with simular tragedies at that time were received in Macedonia and given land,etc.Shurely enough the turks did not have any severance package for these.As christians kicked out of turkey they identified themselfs as greeks,especially for the hospitality.Saddly enough in the later history they forgot the troubles they went thru and are the most vigorous defenders of the macedonia issue at the expense of the local macedonians who were dispursed around the world.

Giorgos | 55. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 23:50

To Macedonian :

I totally disagree on the way Slav-macedonians were treated from the Greek state and I support that the files should be examined and the greek state to regret for what it has done. The reason on why they acted like this is mainly what you have told about 1922. The ''destruction in Asia -Minor'' as we call it here, was something that still haunt us. And this is not only the loss and the exhange of population which occured after the war which make us bleed. It is the way local Greek treated the refugees. And believe me there were huge social problems with their coming here. The feeling of the Greek state and -merely- of the greek society that we cannot cede any province was the main reason for treating slav-macedonians that way. In 1924 when the Greek Communist Party proposed an autonomous Macedonia (the greek part) following the directions of the USSR caused huge political condemn from the other parties and many communists were hunted. When we study history we must come to the position of the other in order to understand his reactions. We cant judge anyone only by looking history with our eyes.

george | 56. Tuesday, November 27 2007, 23:56

All i can say is that most greeks i've met or crossed paths with, they all think that they know their history and they think it's okay to name another nationallity to what ever name it suit them. It's the 21 century and every nation has it's own right to call them self what ever they want as long as its not another nations name. Greek part of Macedonia is not a nation, it's a state which in 1988 changed it's name to Macedonia, before that it used to be known as Northern Greece. The Greek Government changed it's name few months before Yugoslavia broke up. Austalia has a state called Victoria, Canada has a region called Victoria and so and so. FYROM has the right to call them selfs as Macedonians cos it falls in the Geographical Macedonia and no other country has that name.

Goran Stojanov | 57. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 00:30

Being Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia let me express my view regarding your article: We are Macedonians because we are the native population of our homeland Macedonia. If we have any connection with the Ancient Macedonians is completely irrelevant. Our nationhood is of modern origin, much like the nationhood of all other nations. All modern nations, you Greeks too, are 19 century creations. Your connection with the ancient Hellene is merely constructed and imagined.

Greece failed to embrace its northern neighbor as a new sovereign state. Unable to overcome its xenophobia, it did not step up to the plate and help heal the Balkan turmoil, but it rather became a part of the Balkan problem.

Now Greek politicians talk about a compromise. A deal where one side is supposed to give up there very name and identity, and the other side is supposed to give up nothing, can hardly be called a compromise.

I don’t see one single reason why Republic of Macedonia should make any changes to its name. It is not simply Macedonia, but Republic of Macedonia, meaning that it has a constitution and defined borders.

eureka | 58. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 00:43

Slav, the term was first coined in the late 19th century. Translation using modern Macedonian is Glory. So when the Macedonian evangelists Kiril and Methodija spread the Christian faith the true or Macedonian word Pravo-Slav would be True Glory.
How does this fit in to this comment board. These Macedonians (Slavs) where internationalists like Alexander the Great. They believed in the one true and ever living God.
Almost exactly the same as Alexander but 1000 years later.

It seems that the modern Macedonian state has avoided all the heavy ethnic conflicts and still, under tremendous nationalistic pressure from its internal and external neighbors has been able to grant all of its citizens freedom of expression. What would Alexander the Great think of the modern Greek state and its policy of minority rights today. What kind of democracy are these Greeks promoting and where do they believe it will take them in the future.

george | 59. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 02:10

Today there are 2 countries in the world that have a problem with the Republic of Macedonia and guess who they are? Greece and Bulgaria.
Why?
Because both Greece and Bulgaria gain a piece of the geographical region of Macedonia in 1913, which over 100 years ago was a complete and united Macedonia.

The Macedonian People had no one to complain to not even Europe because in 1914 not even one year later World War 1 had started.

Then followed the Great Depression in the 1920's & 30's and the followed World War 2 and after the war Yugoslavia was Born under Mashall Tito. Tito gave freedom to every race in that part of the balkans. Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia ect...........

But the two other countries Greece and Bulgaria Failed to give the Macedonian People freedom to speak their mother touge, and follow their traditions.

No one cared from Europe because the new era of the cold war just started.

Nearly 60 years later Republic of Macedonia (or FYROM the name that the Greeks call us) still has to deal with idiotic people like the Greeks and Bulgarians for a self identity.

How long can the world turn a blind eye for?
Sooner or later the truth will came out and the only people that will look like the biggest fools on the face of this planet is the Greeks. But it's not too late to redeem yourselfs. (refering to the Greeks)

Prague | 60. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 02:33

Greek Propaganda,would itself its smart enough to judge what is ,and what was Macedonia today and Macedonia in Ancient times.

Under UN law, every country has universal right for self-determination.I think R.Macedonia should seek the justice through The International Court of Justice against Greek pressures, and the blackmail pushed ,with EU support concerning provisional name which was forced to them "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"

How would Greeks feel if someone obliged them to call themselves "Former Ottoman Province of Greece" ?

Doesn't sound good, right?

Greece, its about time , and you should wake up!!!

Zeus | 61. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 02:53

You idiots don't get it, do you???

You will be smashed, fucked and destroyed loool

Greek people and greek army are on their way from the south, Bulgarians from the east and Albanians from the west.

Only your criminal brother Serbs are not against you, And they will do nothing to save your asses LOOOOOL

Your connection to Macedonia is similar to chinese connection to the Kaffres.

You are Slavs, pechenegs, Skythes, and fucking barbarians
low life idiots.
YOU DON'T DESERVE TO LIVE. see you in hell LOOOOL

In the southern Balkans they will be only THREE ETHNICITIES: Greeks, Turks, Slavs and Albanians. You choose which one you are, or go find your maker.

It;s your turn after Kosovo, MORONS LOOOOL

Zeus | 62. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 03:03

It's really funny how all you ec-communist morons look at the world LOOOOL

Nothing can save you, not the UN, not the court of Justice, not even your Serb culprits. And certainly not the... 120 nations that have... recognised you LOOOOL. They just scrarch their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots, MORONS

You ought to thank your maker that you survived that long. The Ottomans should have cleared you out. But you kept wiping their asses whenever you were in trouble, so they let you be.

Tito is gone and the Russians have troubles of their own, so FUCK YOU morons, you are dead.

Katherine | 63. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 03:03

The Ancient Macedonians, just like the Ancient Spartans & Athenians were all GREEK tribes. Any rational person with the most elementary knowledge of history knows this.

The present day Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has absolutely no relation to the Ancient Greek Kindgom of Macedonia (Macedon) and The Ancient Greek Macedonians of antiquity, such as Alexander The Great.

The citizens of Fyrom are slavs of Bulgarian ancestory, who migrated into the Balkans in the 6th century AD, that means 600 years after jesus christ, that is almost 1000 years after the death of Alexander The Great.

How can a slav nation who live in a small country, and more than 50% of the country was not even part of King Phillips historical Macedonia claim their country to be called Macedonia.

How can a slav nation, appropriate for themselves a hellenic name, (MACEDONIA, MACEDONIAN) hellenic history and a hellenic symbol when it doesn't belong to them, and they know this, but they continue to shamelessly bark like dogs that they are Macedonians, that the speak Macedonian, and they are decentants of Ancient Macedonians?

Every person has a right to an identity, but no one has the right to use an identity that belongs to another nation for thousands of years, this is called IDENTITY THEFT and it's a crime, it's a fraud, the biggest fraud in world history.

If Serbia started calling themselves Romans and their country Rome, I think Italy would react the same as Greece is, fighting for what is rightfully theirs.

Fyrom and its diaspora are a disorintated bunch, because they are Bulgarians but claim to be "Macedonian", they speak a Bulgarian dialect, but claim their language is "Macedonian" and claim the Ancient Macedonians spoke their language, but till this day can't provide ONE piece of archiological evidence, that's cause all the evidence is written in Ancient Greek, the language of Alexander The Great and his Greek Macedonian successors, these people lie about history like there is no tomorrow, but then they claim to be the victims, cause they can't take the truth.

Zeus | 64. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 03:21

It's really funny, how you ex-communist morons view the wold

You think the UN, the International Court or anybody else is going to save you?? LOOOOL Or maybe the 120 countries that have... recognised you as "Macedonia"?? LLLOL They are scratching their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots

The Russians have prob;ems of their own and Tito is dead and gone. AND, VMRO will be a piece o' cake for the Albanians.

The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be.

It's over now though LOOOL

Zeus | 65. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 03:25

hey you moron from Prague

LOOOOOL

Greek people would say to you, or anybody like you, simply "Molon Lave".

You know what that means moron???

I guess not. your brain isn't big enough for that LOOOOOL

PS. I got a couple of your countrymen here wiping my ass, would you like to join them??

Bob | 66. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 03:52

It doesn't really matter. The Republic of Macedonia is a failing state and I predict it will be a memory by the middle of the century.

The few wealthy members of the diaspora refuse to invest due to the highly corrupt bureaucracy. In fact, Greece, the country with the largest political ax to grind with Macedonia (re: Name Issue), is the country's largest investor. How perverted is that?

Many educated Macedonians are leaving for Bulgaria (taking their passports where they have to claim Bulgarian ethnicity!) or the West the first chance they get. And though their birthrate has slowed somewhat, the Albanians are still on a clear path to becoming, if not the majority population, then certainly a plurality within decades.

My roots are from the all three major parts of Macedonia but I have no affinity with any of the nationalisms in the Balkans (even though I claim a Macedonian identity in a general sense). They're all lies in my eyes. The claims of many proclaiming a Macedonian ethnicity that we Macedonians are united and will one day have a united, geographic Macedonia are laughable. In the first place, we were NEVER united and never will be. There are too many of us who did and continue to claim a Greek or Bulgarian (or even Serbian) identity for that to ever happen. Even in the Republic of Macedonia itself, which I have visited on three occasions, there are pockets of Macedonians I met who have little confidence in Macedonia's future and are preparing to throw in their lot with Bulgaria, Serbia, or even Greece when the country inevitably crumbles. The Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria, on the other hand, are (for better or for worse) almost entirely assimilated today and unfortunately have no desire to be a part of any ethnic Macedonian movement.

The far bigger problem, however, is that the Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia have a bigger interest in dissolving the country than the Macedonians have in continuing it.

The clock is ticking and the end is only a matter of time.

george | 67. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 05:01

You Greeks are missing the point here, over the last decade the Greeks have denied to recognize Macedonia and look out for it's own Greek intrests. Since 1991 when Greece first objected to the Republic, we have see the rise of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia. How many Albanians are there in Greece working in the farms as slave labour. Just remember it started the same way in the other balkan countries, you can't continue to recognize them as muslims. Sooner or later the Greeks will lose a slice of Macedonia to the Albanians. The Albanians are similar to the Turks and we know that the Greeks and the Turks don't get along over the Cyprus, which in my opinion Cyprus is Turkish. Not too far in the distant future Greece will be serounded in enemies all around.

eureka | 68. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 05:35

Makedonia
Mak e donia
Maika= mother
Dome= home
In Macedonian, I'm sorry Slavic, means mothers home, or motherland.
Now translate using Greek. I dont think so!

eureka | 69. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 05:50

Zeus and Kathrine

Thats right, let it out, show the world your true colors. Is this where you would like to see Europe and the Balkans heading. Back to the feudal days. Wake up, these are real people we are talking about.

Did the EU miss something. What happened to life, liberty, and persuit. Im dumbfounded.

All I can say is that I have done some travels through Macedonia and my first hand impression was being in gods country. Beautiful country and people. As for some Greeks and my travels in Greece, I wish I could say the same!

Pete | 70. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 06:26

Hey Zeus,
What the fuk are you waiting for, come on then big man, all tough and brave you fukn plastic internet warrior. Attack Macedonia, come on then, let me see you do that then. You and all your other similar nationalistic, psycho, xenophobic, nazi mates are the ones that ruin it for everyone in the Balkans.
Whats another war gonna solve? Nothing! So stop your showing off and fukn attack Macedonia then. The most powerful military in the world can't keep the peace in Iraq and you think your going smash and destroy R_o_Macedonia. Yeah, thats funny. Im not saying that R_o_Macedonia's army is stronger than greece's, not even close but for fuk's sake, you think your going to occupy Macedonia and keep the peace without a shitload of your soldiers being blown up everyday.
I apologise to moderate greeks and everyone else who was commenting constructively but its idiots like zeus on all sides who are stopping the entire balkans from moving forward and becoming prosperous and in greece's case even more prosperous.

yiorgos | 71. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 06:34

Eureka, your attempt to recognize Macedonia as a slavic name is flawed, another misconseption and falsification of facts and history. If you were a TRUE Macedonian, as you claim you then would have been familiar that the origin of the name is Doric meaning tall, to describe them as tall people. How can you even claim that the name Macedonia is even Slavic, when the Slavic language never even originated from that region, but in the region of current Lithuania

Pete | 72. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 07:05

come on print my previous comment you fucken soft cocks. These fucken greeks can come on here and mouth off and use terms like fucking and idiots and so on and you wont print my post. Fuck you, Fuck the Greek Nation and Fuck all the GREEK people around the world because you will pay for what you have done to my people. My grandfather was MACEDONIAN my father is MACEDONIAN Im MACEDONIAN my children are MACEDONIAN and my grandchildren will be MACEDONIAN and so on forever!!! and you tell me you motherfucking greek what the fuck are you going to do about that? I'll tell you. FUCKING ABSOLUTELY JACKSHIT!!!!!

Pete | 73. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 07:10

You dont print my previous posts which were constructive and and reconciliatory but you print that one? which was written out of frustration because you couldn't cope with some criticisim. what is wrong with people????

Zeus | 74. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 10:34

Pete,
i don't think anybody can refuse posting your comments. Maybe you didn't wait long enough for it to be trnsmitted. Try again. And let that steam out, it'll do you good looool

Bob
Yours is an excellent analysis of what has happened to Macedonia in the past, and what will probably happen in the future. Just one remark: In the Byzantine times, the so called "Macedonian Dynasty" whose founder was an Armenian (Basil I) used the area for deporting heretics from the east. The Turks, the Bulgarians, the Greeks, did the same. And this is the drama of the Balkans: different tribes, different ethnicities, different people were never given the chance to settle down and live together.

There is only one solution here: Let anybody who feels like it declare himself as Macedonian. Let's forget about the ancient Macedonians (who - by the way - were Greeks, all the way), let's leave the issue of Alexander behind us (he was not that... humane, anyway lol), let's declare that Macedonia is a geographically defined area and let us hope that soon borders, flags, and the like will be much less important than what they seem ti be today.

In the mean time, we should all realize that noone should insult the others and we all should yield something to our neighbors.

Having and distributing maps wtih some obsolete country called "Macedonia" reaching down to Salonica, definetely does not help. Nor does it help to call a small portion of the area "Macedonia".

And, by the way, being Macedonian doesn't automatically rule out being Greek or Albanian or Serb or Bulgarian, or Turk, or whatever. You are looking at one such case: I am Greek and Macedonian. I feel others in Macedonia are my brothers, i will fight for them to be able to speak their language and prevent their culture - but they should realize that their's is not the only culture in the area.

The most important issue here, though, is to solve the problems by ourselves, without interventions from peoples and pressure groups outside the area. This is really a problem. Most of the newly formed states here are suffering from the "Big Brother Syndrom". That's very unfortunate, because, as we all know from experience, "there is not such a thing as a free lunch..."

Zeus | 75. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 10:48

to eureka
That is a very interesting etimological analysis there!
And totally destorted, as well. Loooool

Macedonia, as a name, a region, a concept, was here long before Slavs and Pechenegs reached the area and brought their language along !!

Eureka, you are a typical example of what we don't need around here. In a future "Macedonian State", Eureka, you ought to loose your... citizenship (just kidding, of course)

Stefan | 76. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 10:51

OK here's my response to Selimstan who is trying to pass himself off as educated. I have copied part of your question to me below;

And please, enlighten me: where is all this condemnation of Greece by the international organizations? i haven't seen any of that recently. Nor have i seen anything vaguely suggesting of 'a large "macedonian" minority in Northern Greece'. Stefan, this is wishful thinking,

Well here is something copied from the Human Rights Watch Organisation. When you feebly try to discredit this global organisation then I will send you something from Amnesty International, and then the UN etc. I pity you, as you seem to be the most brainwashed out of everyone...

The Macedonians of Greece
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally-recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government — followed and threatened by security forces — and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their descendants who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit northern Greece. By contrast, all of these are possible for political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Greek courts have denied permission to establish a "Center for Macedonian Culture." Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity. (From our “Denying Ethnic Identity” series)
HRW Index No.: ISBN 1-56432-132-0
May 1, 1994

selimstan | 77. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 11:06

thank you Stefan,
go ahead and insult me. I don't mind. You and yours have done a lot worse to YOUR OWN countrymen, just for having another religion...

Let me just refer you to Zeus's last posting.

AND, i said 'recently'. 1994 is not that recent, now, is it?

HA, brainwashed, hey?? looool
coming from a Serb, this is almost a compliment loool

Daskalos | 78. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 11:16

Hey Zeus kai loipoi FASISTES,

Malaka fasista, etsi kai se eixa mprosta mou tha sou erixna mia koutoulia re tsoglane gia na matheis na symperiferesai san anthrwpos, zwon tis diasporas.

Atoma san ki esena exoune mavrisei tin eikona tis Elladas, ere an se petyxw tha sou mavrisw to mati.

You nazi Greeks make me feel ashamed to be part of the same national group as you. You belong to the outskirts of WWII history, morons.

When my grandfather was fighting the Italians, the Germans and the nazi Bulgarians in the Great War, you mongrel skinheads, he knew that there was a Macedonian nation living next to his native Thessaly alongside the Greeks of Macedonia, in peace, for many years before Metaxas gained power.

You, you idiotic diaspora-brainwashed orthodox lunatics, with your "refined" rhetoric, littered with historical references from the 4th century BC, which you present as of biblical importance, are MANIPULATING semiotics in order to demonstrate that a nation of 2 million people do not exist IN THE 21st century YOU FOOLS!!!

Ante sto diavolo vrwmera apovrasmata, Chrysavgites, STIN PYRA REEEEEEE, akrodexia fidia.

Zeus | 79. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 11:34

Δάσκαλε

Δεν καταλαβαίνω από που συνάγεις οτι είμαι φασίστας. Και ακροδεξιός !
Εγώ πάντως θεωρώ τον ευατό μου σοσιαλιστή, αντιρατσιστή και προοδευτικό. Όσο για... χρυσαυγίτη, τί είναι πάλι αυτό;

Και μην εξάπτεσαι Δάσκαλε, με κουτουλιές και τέτοια, θα... φας το κεφάλι σου.

Και ποιά διασπορά ΡΕ ΜΑΛΑΚΑ; Γεννήθηκα στα Εξάρχεια και ζω στην Πολιτεία, ΚΑΤΑΛΑΒΕΣ;

Αν πάλι θες ΝΑ ΣΕ ΓΑΜΗΣΩ, πες μου που και πότε. Έχω ότι χρειάζεται για να σε στείλω στο νοσοκομείο: ΛΕΦΤΑ, ΑΡΧΙΔΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΛΟ ΔΙΚΗΓΟΡΟ

Δάσκαλος | 80. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 11:45

Zeus wrote at 63.

"It's really funny, how you ex-communist morons view the wold

You think the UN, the International Court or anybody else is going to save you?? LOOOOL Or maybe the 120 countries that have... recognised you as "Macedonia"?? LLLOL They are scratching their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots

The Russians have prob;ems of their own and Tito is dead and gone. AND, VMRO will be a piece o' cake for the Albanians.

The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be.

It's over now though LOOOL"

Ρε οπαδέ των εθνικών εκκαθαρίσεων, θίχτηκες?

Ξέρεις γιατί θίχτηκες βρε παπάρι? Γιατί όποιος έχει τη μύγα τον επαίρνει από την κωλοτρυπίδα.

Εγώ δικηγόρος είμαι, μαλάκα, επομένως για να σε γαμήσω το μόνο που έχω να κάνω είναι να σε ξεβρακώσω.

Zeus | 81. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 12:19

Αρχίδια δικηγόρος είσαι looool

Κάτι σαν παπαδάνθρωπο σε κάνω. Και οπαδό του Ορθόδοξου Συναγερμού (Λαϊκού και χέρι... χέρι)

Που νομίζεις οτι μίλησα για "εθνικές εκκαθαρίσεις";

Οι Οθωμανοί, ρε ανιστόρητε, μόνο εθνικές εκκαθαρίσεις δεν έκαναν, Ούτε καν εθνότητες δεν αναγνώριζαν.

Ή μήπως αμφισβητείς οτι οι Αμερικάνοι κάνουν κουμάντο στην περιοχή; Και οτι τα Σκόπια προσφέρουν γη και ύδωρ για να επιβιώσουν.

Και δεν θίγομαι τόσο εύκολα...
Αν επιμένεις να με ξεβρακώσεις, σε προειδοποιώ... θα απογοητευτείς loool

Δάσκαλος | 82. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 12:44

Μια απλή ανάγνωση προηγούμενων δηλώσεών μου, αρκεί για να αποδείξει κανείς το αναληθές των λόγων σου, συκοφάντη της πλάκας.

Επαναλαμβάνω, επειδή μάλλον αργόστροφος είσαι -

Εσύ δεν είπες "The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be" στο post 63?

Το αφήνω αμετάφραστο.

Αρε κακομοίρη. Ούτε το νόημα των λόγων σου δεν κατέχεις, πόσο μάλλον αρχίδια, τα οποία μας διαφημίζεις κιόλας.

Με αποκαλείς ανιστόρητο, αμόρφωτε.

Καλά ρε, ανεκδιήγητε, δεν έχεις ακούσει ποτέ για τη γεννοκτονία των Αρμενίων? http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...

Άν δεχτούμε ότι οι Οθωμανοί δεν αναγνώριζαν εθνότητες, μπούφο, τότε εσύ κι εγώ δεν θα υπήρχαμε. Θα είμασταν Τούρκοι.

Ποιός δημιούργησε το Ορθόδοξο Μιλλέτ (ΕΘΝΟΣ) το 1453 μαλάκα? Γιατί ο Γεννάδιος ο Β' ο Σκολάριος έφερε τον τίτλο του "ΕΘΝΑΡΧΗ"?

Αντί για δικηγόρο, καλύτερα να ξοδέψεις τα λεφτά σου σε ιδιαίτερα.

Zeus | 83. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 14:25

Δάσκαλε,

Επειδή τώρα μπαίνεις στα χωράφια μου, άκου για να μαθαίνεις:

Οι Οθωμανοί, τουλάχιστον μέχρι την εποχή της παρακμής της αυτοκρατορίας τους στις αρχές του 18ου αιώνα δεν αναγνώριζαν εθνότητες, αλλά μόνο θρησκείες. Και το ορθόδοξο millet δεν είναι εθνότητα, αλλά θρησκεία, μπούφε!

Η γενοκτονία των Αρμενίων έίναι έργο της αποσύνθεσης της Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας και του ανατέλλοντος κράτους των Νεοτούρκων.

Αλλά, ...Δάσκαλε (looool) αν θες να μάθεις περισσότερα για την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία, σε παραπέμπω στο τελευταίο βιβλίο μου "Η Αυτοκρατορία της Τουλίπας" που θα κυκλοφορήσει στις αρχές του 2008 από τις Εκδόσεις Κέδρος και από το οποίο παραθέτω εδώ (με την άδεια του συντονιστή) ένα μέρος από την εισαγωγή (σε δυο μέρη):

...Αυτό το βιβλίο αναφέρεται σε ανθρώπους που δεν υπάρχουν. Το όνομα ‘Οθωμανός’ δεν προσδιορίζει ούτε περιοχές ούτε ανθρώπους. Κανείς πια δεν μιλά τη γλώσσα τους. Λίγοι μόνο ερευνητές σε σύγχρονα Πανεπιστήμια αρχίζουν να καταλαβαίνουν τη λογοτεχνία τους.

Για εξακόσια χρόνια όμως, η Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία υπήρξε, μεγάλωσε, αναπτύχθηκε και διαλύθηκε. Ξεκίνησε από ένα μικρό μπεϊλίκι στις παρυφές των λόφων της Ανατολίας στις αρχές του 14ου αιώνα, για να υποτάξει το κραταιό Βυζάντιο – ή τουλάχιστον ότι είχε απομείνει από αυτό – όλη τη χερσόνησο των Βαλκανίων από την Αδριατική μέχρι τη Μαύρη Θάλασσα, την Ελλάδα, τη Σερβία, τη Βουλγαρία, τα Πριγκιπάτα της Βλαχίας και της Μολδαβίας βόρεια του Δούναβη. Πήρε όλη την Ανατολία. Υπέταξε όλους τους λαούς της περιοχής, ακόμα και τους άγριους Τατάρους της Κριμαίας. Με την άλωση της Κωνσταντινούπολης το 1453 ολοκλήρωσε τον έλεγχο της Μαύρης Θάλασσας. Το 1517 κατέκλυσε την καρδιά του Ισλάμ: Τη Συρία, την Αραβία και την Αίγυπτο, μαζί με τις Ιερές Πόλεις Μέκκα και Μεδίνα. Οι Οθωμανοί έλεγχαν για 500 χρόνια τους πανάρχαιους δρόμους που μετέφεραν πολιτισμό από την Ανατολή στη Δύση, τη Μέση Ανατολή. Η αυτοκρατορία τους εκτεινόταν από το Δούναβη στο Νείλο και από την Αδριατική στον Ευφράτη.

Η Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία υπήρξε Ισλαμική, πολεμόχαρη, πολιτισμένη και ανεκτική. Όσοι ζούσαν πέρα από τα σύνορά της, σε χώρες γνωστές στο Ισλάμ σαν Νταρ Ουλ-Χαρμπ, (Ο κόσμος ή η στέγη του πολέμου), την έτρεμαν ή την σέβονταν, ανάλογα με τα συμφέροντά τους. Για τους υπηκόους της ήταν το Νταρ Ουλ-Ισλάμ, ο κόσμος της ειρήνης. Τόσο ευνομούμενη και λειτουργική, ένα θαύμα ανθρώπινης διάνοιας, που ο μύθος ήθελε θεϊκές δυνάμεις – διαβολικές για μερικούς – να συμμετέχουν στη δημιουργία της.

Στις αρχές του δέκατου-έβδομου αιώνα, το θαύμα αυτό κρατικής υπόστασης άρχισε να δείχνει σημεία κατάρρευσης. Η σημασία της Μεσογείου στο διεθνές εμπόριο ιδεών και αγαθών πέρναγε σιγά-σιγά σε δεύτερη μοίρα. Η εξάπλωση του Ισλάμ είχε ήδη αναχαιτισθεί. Ο δρόμος για την Άπω Ανατολή, τα χρυσάφια και τα μπαχαρικά της, δεν πέρναγε πια από τους αμμόλοφους της Σαχάρας ή τα μονοπάτια της Μέσης Ανατολής. Οι μεγάλοι Πορτογάλοι θαλασσοπόροι, με τον περίπλου της Αφρικής, άνοιξαν νέους ορίζοντες. Τα σκλαβοπάζαρα της δύσμοιρης Αφρικής ήταν ήδη πιο σημαντικά από την ύπαρξη της γηραιάς και δύσμορφης Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας. Και κυρίως, νέες πολλά υποσχόμενες αγορές άνοιγαν πέρα από τον Ατλαντικό. Στον κόσμο των Οθωμανών, οι μάχες είχαν ήδη κερδηθεί και τα οπλικά επιχειρήματα ήταν ξεπερασμένα. Η μοίρα είχε ήδη γραφτεί και οι ίδιοι οι Οθωμανοί ζούσαν ακόμα περισσότερο στο παρελθόν και στις περασμένες τους δόξες. Όχι πως οι ίδιοι οι Οθωμανοί δεν ήξεραν τη μοίρα τους: Τα πρώτα σχέδια για τη διάνοιξη της διώρυγας του Σουέζ έγιναν από αρχιτέκτονες στη Μεγάλη Πύλη.

Και όμως, άλλα διακόσια χρόνια πέρασαν μέχρι την αναπόφευκτη συντριβή. Παρά τη σήψη στην κεφαλή της αυτοκρατορίας και την αναταραχή στις ρίζες της. Παρά τις ηρωικές εξεγέρσεις των πολυεθνικών της υπηκόων. Και κυρίως, παρά τις προσπάθειες των ‘γιατρών’ για μια σύντομη και αξιοπρεπή ευθανασία, ο εσχατόγερος ασθενής δεν έλεγε να αποδημήσει, επέζησε και αυτών των δεινότερων θανατολόγων του: του τσάρου της Ρωσίας και του οίκου των Αψβούργων κατά τέσσερα ολόκληρα χρόνια. Ο αντιπρόσωπος του βασιλιά της Αγγλίας στη Μεγάλη Πύλη, Sir Thomas Roe, έγραφε στην κυβέρνησή του το 1621: «Είναι σαν το σώμα ενός γέρου, γεμάτο αρρώστιες και κακίες που μένουν όταν περάσει η δύναμη της νεότητας». Οι Οθωμανοί εγκατέλειψαν τη Βοσνία το 1878. Και μέχρι το 1882 ο Σουλτάνος – τεχνικά τουλάχιστον – ήταν ο Κύριος της Αιγύπτου. Η Αλβανία ήταν από τις πιο δύσκολες περιοχές που υπέταξε η Αυτοκρατορία τον δέκατο-πέμπτο αιώνα. Οι Αλβανοί όμως έστελναν κοινοβουλευτικούς εκπροσώπους στην Κωνσταντινούπολη μέχρι το 1909.

Zeus | 84. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 14:28

μέρος 2ο
Η αυτοκρατορία ήταν βέβαια Ισλαμική. Αν και πολλοί από τους υπηκόους της δεν ήταν Μουσουλμάνοι. Η ίδια η αυτοκρατορία δεν έκανε καμιά προσπάθεια εξισλαμισμού των απίστων υπηκόων της. Ήλεγχε τις εμπορικές οδούς ανάμεσα σε Ανατολή και Δύση, αλλά δεν είχε κανένα ιδιαίτερο ενδιαφέρον για το εμπόριο. Κατά γενική παραδοχή ήταν Τουρκική αυτοκρατορία, αλλά οι περισσότεροι από τους αξιωματούχους της ήταν Έλληνες. Διέθετε την πιο αποτελεσματική – μέχρι τότε – πολεμική μηχανή, αλλά οι περισσότεροι – και καλύτεροι – μαχητές της ήταν Σλάβοι. Ακολουθούσε τη Βυζαντινή τελετουργία, την Περσική νομενκλατούρα. Τα πλούτη της ήταν στην Αίγυπτο και η γραφή της Αραβική. Οι Οθωμανοί δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα επιρρεπείς στις Τέχνες, αλλά ένας από τους Μεγάλους Βεζίρηδες της Πύλης έκτισε περισσότερες εκκλησίες από τον Ιουστινιανό. Οι Οθωμανοί δεν υπήρξαν ποτέ φανατικοί της θρησκείας. Σαν Σουνίτες Μουσουλμάνοι ακολουθούσαν την Χανεφί, μετριοπαθή σχολή ερμηνείας του Κορανίου. Ο σουλτάνος Σουλεϊμάν ο Μεγαλοπρεπής διάβαζε ακατάπαυστα την βιογραφία του Μεγάλου Αλεξάνδρου. Γενικά, το παρελθόν δεν ενδιέφερε πολύ τους Σουλτάνους. Ο διάδοχος του Μεχμέτ του Πορθητή όμως, ο Σελίμ ο Σκληρός, ζήτησε να επισκεφθεί την Αθήνα, όπου πέρασε δύο μερόνυχτα θαυμάζοντας την Ακρόπολη. Ο Μεσαιωνικός κόσμος της Λατινικής Ευρώπης περιφρόνησε τους Οθωμανούς. Πάντως ο Ιβάν Ο Τρομερός θεωρούσε τον Μεχμέτ τον Πορθητή σαν πρότυπό του και οι Ενετοί – γνωστοί για την περιέργειά τους – εμφανώς θαύμαζαν τον τρόπο διακυβέρνησης των Οθωμανών, σε σημείο που ο πολύς Μοροζίνι πρότεινε στη Γαληνοτάτη να εφαρμόσει την «αρμονία» και απόλυτη αναλογικότητα της Οθωμανικής διακυβέρνησης.

Η Αυτοκρατορία, όχι απλώς επέζησε του μεγαλείου της, αλλά άφησε στους μεταγενέστερους συγκεκριμένα χαρακτηριστικά που πιθανόν να μην είχαν διασωθεί αλλιώς. Η Ελληνική Ορθοδοξία, αν και πριν από την επικράτηση των Οθωμανών ήταν η επικρατούσα θρησκεία – εκτός από τη Βαλκανική – και σε όλη την Νότιο Ιταλία, στις υπερδουνάβιες περιοχές της Ουγγαρίας και σε άλλες Ευρωπαϊκές περιοχές, επιβίωσε μόνο στις περιοχές της Οθωμανικής κυριαρχίας. Το ίδιο, αν όχι εντονότερο, το θέμα με τη Γλώσσα των Ελλήνων. Η Ελληνική, γλώσσα πολιτισμού, η δεύτερη γλώσσα της Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας, επέζησε μόνο στις περιοχές της Αυτοκρατορίας.

Οι καλύτεροι ναυτικοί στην Αυτοκρατορία ήταν Έλληνες, οι πιο διορατικοί έμποροι ήταν Αρμένιοι. Οι πιο αποτελεσματικοί της στρατιωτικοί, οι γενίτσαροι, ήταν Βαλκάνιοι, οι πιο ισχυροί αξιωματούχοι της ήταν Φαναριώτες – δηλαδή Έλληνες. Οι πιο πλούσιοι πολίτες της ήταν Αιγύπτιοι, και οι πιο μορφωμένοι Άραβες. Η Αυτοκρατορία έζησε τόσους αιώνες χωρίς να έχει την νησιωτική απομόνωση της Αγγλίας, την μονο-πολιτισμική συνοχή της Γαλλίας ή την θρησκευτική περιφρούρηση της Ιεράς Εξέτασης της Ισπανίας.

Ο τσάρος Αλέξανδρος – μετά τον πόλεμο της Κριμαίας, το 1856 – αποκάλεσε την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία ‘Ο Ευρωπαίος Ασθενής’ και οι Βικτοριανοί πολιτικοί της Αγγλίας αναφέρονταν σ’ αυτήν, απρόσωπα, σαν ‘Το Ανατολικό Ζήτημα’. Λύση ήταν για τις Μεγάλες Δυνάμεις η επιβολή του διαμελισμού της ασθενούς, έτσι ώστε τίποτα να μην θυμίζει τη γηραιά κυρία που τόσοι πολλοί φοβούνταν. Ένα είδος ανακύκλωσης. Όμως κάτι απέμεινε από αυτήν. Αν και άυλο, ακαθόριστο, ασαφές το άρωμα των πεντακοσίων χρόνων υπάρχει ακόμα παντού γύρω μας.

Δάσκαλος | 85. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 15:12

Αν το λημέρι σου είναι η παρα-ιστορία, τότε πρόσεξε να μην παραχαράξεις τουλάχιστον τους επιστημονικοφανείς όρους που χρησιμοποιείς, Τουλίπα.

Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ (Ρουμ Μιλλέτ) και οι μιλλετμπάσηδες επιλέχθησαν από το Σουλτάνο ως μέθοδος διακυβέρνησης των υπαρχόντων λαϊκών ομάδων της Ανατολικής Ρώμης.

Το μιλλέτ καθρέφτιζε, με άλλα λόγια τις υπάρχουσες εθνο-πολιτικές οργανώσεις, δεν δημιούργησε καινούριες.

Απόδειξη επ' αυτού αποτελεί το γεγονός οτι α) Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ συνέχισε να υπάγεται στον Κώδικα του Ιουστινιανού και β) οι πρώτες εθνικές επαναστάσεις υπονομεύθηκαν από τη Δύση το 19ο αιώνα και δεν ξεπήδησαν από τους γηγενείς νωρίτερα.

Επομένως, τα γεγονότα συγκλίνουν προς την εξής διαπίστωση -

1. Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ είναι η απ'ευθείας συνέχιση της Ανατολικής Ρωμαϊκής Αυτοκρατορίας και του λεγόμενου Βυζαντινού έθνους.

2. Ο ελληνόφωνος Εθνάρχης - Πατριάρχης - Μιλλετμπάσης κυβερνούσε Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ.

3. Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ είναι ένα πολυπολιτισμικό έθνος, το οποίο αποτελείται από Ορθόδοξους Σλάβους, Βουλγάρους, Αλβανούς και ελληνόφωνες Ρωμαίους.

Τα Μακεδονικά βιλαέτια και η γέννηση του Μακεδονικού έθνους εντός των παραδοσιακών ορίων του Ορθόδοξου μιλλέτ (μετέπειτα όρια του Βουλγαρικού Εξαρχάτου) αποτελεί τρανό παράδειγμα εθνολογικής σύγχησης σε πρώτη φάση και διαφοροποίησης σε δεύτερη.

Εμείς οι νεο-Έλληνες (Ρωμιοί από το Ρουμ μιλλέτ) καλά θα κάνουμε να σταματήσουμε να ξύνουμε τ' αρχ(α)ί(δι)α μας και να σοβαρευτούμε λιγάκι.

Zeus | 86. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 18:44

Συμφωνώ.

Βέβαια, αργότερα στον πατριάρχη ανατέθηκε ολος ο Χριστιανικός πληθυσμός της Αυτοκρατορίας (και οι Λατίνοι), οι Αρμένιοι, ακόμα και οι Εβραίοι.

Οι δυο πρώτες διαπιστώσεις σου είναι σωστές,
Η τρίτη σηκώνει συζήτηση. Τί σημαίνει "πολυπολιτιστικό έθνος"; μήπως πολυεθνικός πολιτισμός;

Η 'εθνολογική σύγχυση' στην Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία αποτελεί, εν πολλοίς, την αιτία της σημερινής κατάστασης στα Βαλκάνια. Για να γίνει όμως αντιληπτή η αντιμετώπιση της εθνικής ταυτότητας από τους Οθωμανούς, διάβασε παρακαλώ το παρακάτω εδάφιο από τον μεγάλο Οθωμανό χρονικογράφο Εβλίγια Τσελέμπη, που τελείωσε τις μέρες του το 1693 στην Ινσταμπούλ, σε μετάφραση δική μου, από το βιβλίο J.W Gibbs, κεφάλαιο XLII:

«Τα σεπτά μνημεία των αγίων, των ηρώων, των Αυτοκρατόρων και των Σουλτάνων σ’ αυτή την ιερή πόλη είναι μεγαλόπρεπα και σεβαστά, από την εποχή των Χριστιανών και πριν από αυτή, όταν οι σοφοί από την Ελλάδα είχαν εδώ τους τάφους τους, ο Θεός να αναπαύει τις ψυχές τους. Όλοι αυτοί και οι δικοί τους έκαναν καλό στην Ιστανμπούλ. Και τα αμέτρητα τζαμιά με τις κουλίγιες που δείχνουν το πλούτο των Σουλτάνων και Πατισάχ στην ιερή Αυτοκρατορία μας, ο Θεός να τους χαρίζει αιώνια ειρήνη, δείχνουν τη μεγαλοσύνη της Πίστης μας σε όσους θα θελήσουν να τα επισκεφθούν στο μέλλον. Αλλά οι απλοί άνθρωποι της Ιστανμπούλ και τα έργα τους πρέπει να μνημονευθούν επίσης γιατί αυτοί είναι η μεγαλύτερη δύναμη της πόλης αυτής και θα είναι για πάντα. Οι χιλιάδες μπαμπά (πατεράδες) και ντεντέ (παππούδες) μας είναι που πρέπει να θυμόμαστε, από το παλιό Βυζάντιο μέχρι και σήμερα που οι άρχοντές μας φαίνεται να ξεχνούν. Όπως ο Ντουρμούς Ντεντέ στο Ρούμελι Χιζάρι, που όλοι οι ναυτικοί άκουγαν τη συμβουλή του για το πιο θαλάσσιο δρόμο έπρεπε να ακολουθήσουν και τον ευχαριστούσαν δίνοντάς του όταν γυρνούσαν ένα μήλο, ένα ρόδι, μια οκά κρέας. Και ο Ιλικτσί μπαμπά που είχε νερό και σερμπέτια στην αυλή του για κάθε διαβάτη και τώρα λένε ότι λίγο χώμα από τον τάφο του θεραπεύει πολλές αρρώστιες. Και ο χωρατατζής Αχμέτ Ντεντέ που πέρναγε την ώρα του κάτω από τη γέφυρα του Κασίμ Πασά και ήξερε τα ονόματα όλων των ανθρώπων, πιστών και άπιστων που τον είχαν ποτέ χαιρετήσει και χόρευε πολύ ωραία για όποιον περαστικό του το ζητούσε να ξεχάσει τα ντέρτια του. Και τον Σεΐχη Αμντούλ, πέρα στο Χάσκοϋ που όποιος περνούσε από την πόρτα του σπιτιού του άκουγε ωραίες ιστορίες από την Αβησσυνία, τη χώρα των μαύρων, που είχε επισκεφθεί πολλές φορές. Κι’ εγώ σαν παιδί κρυφάκουγα αυτές τις ιστορίες και μετά πήγα εκεί για να βρω τις πηγές του μεγάλου ποταμού Νείλου, χωρίς να βρω την άκρη, ο Θεός να συγχωρέσει τις πολλές μου αμαρτίες. Και Χριστιανοί που έχουν τα πηγάδια με το άγιασμα, ας είναι καλά και ας τους συγχωρέσει ο Αλλάχ, γιατί είναι άνθρωποι του Βιβλίου και πολλοί πιστοί λένε ότι το νερό από τα πηγάδια τους κάνει καλό στον διαβάτη και είναι πάντα καθαρό και δροσερό. Και στο Γαλατά, η πιο όμορφη συνοικία από όλες τις πόλεις που έχω δει, με τους πολλούς πειρασμούς γιατί εδώ περισσεύουν οι άπιστοι, 200.000 Έλληνες, Φράγκοι, Αρμένηδες, Εβραίοι και μόνο 64.000 πιστοί Μουσουλμάνοι, όλοι αγαπημένοι, ο φίλος μου Αλέξης ντεντέ που ψαρεύει τα καλύτερα καλκάνια και η κόρη του τα μαγειρεύει με τέχνη, και όταν πάω από κει πάντα με φιλεύει ένα, αλλά διώχνει γρήγορα το κρασί από το τραπέζι για να μη με βάλει σε πειρασμό. Στο Γαλατά υπάρχουν διακόσιες ταβέρνες που οι άπιστοι αλλά και δικοί μας άνθρωποι του Προφήτη γλεντάνε με κρασί και μουσική από τα Μουδανιά, τη Σμύρνη, την Τένεδο και άλλα γνωστά για τα αμπέλια τους μέρη. Ο Θεός να τους συγχωρέσει όλους γιατί είναι καλοί και άξιοι"

Ας πούμε κι εμείς τα ιδια σήμερα

Δάσκαλος | 87. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 20:12

Πολύ καλά τα τελευταία σου σχόλια Zeus και φυσικά συμφωνώ με την σύγχυση ως αίτιο του Βαλκανικού προβλήματος.

Όπου πολυπολιτιστικός βλέπε "multicultural" και όχι "multiethnic".

Η έννοια χρησιμοποιείται από ακαδημαϊκους κύκλους σε σχέση με το Βυζάντιο, την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία και πιο πρόσφατα τη Βρετανία του Τόνι Μπλερ και την ΕΕ.

Η πολυπολιτιστική κοινωνία αποτελεί την Ιθάκη των Δημοκρατιών μετά το τέλος του ΔΠΠ.

Κακώς μέχρι τώρα ο όρος δεν έχει χρησιμοποιηθεί για να περιγράψει το Βυζάντιο από Έλληνες στοχαστές, οι οποίοι δυστυχώς βλέπουν μονάχα την γαλανόλευκη εκδοχή της Ανατολικής Ρώμης.

Στην Ελλάδα, ο όρος χρησιμοποιείται κυρίως από τον χώρο της αριστεράς, ενώ παραδόξως διεθνώς χρησιμοποιείται από νεο-φιλελεύθερους, πρώην σοσιαλιστικούς οργανισμούς όπως το Εργατικό Κόμμα στη Βρετανία.

Macedonian | 88. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 21:05

What's going on???? I was educated at Wst Point, not by Arisotle.

Macedonian | 89. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 21:08

I hope somebody gets it.

Zeus | 90. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 22:02

yea, we understand your problem "Macedonian", but don't worry, we can suggest a nice list of books for you to catch up with some real education looool

Really, sry about that. No more greek, english from now on

Giorgos | 91. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 22:28

I can inform the Greeks that they can debate in greek in the greek section of the blog! Also, If you have any proposals in historical issues which we can debate you can just inform me and I can upload them. As for any comments that you cant see them probalby they are marked as junk- this is an automatic process- I will publish them as soon as possible. Here we dont sencor anything! And if you want I would like to see some proposals over democracy in the other category. Its worthy if we can make suggestions for future than debating over the past!

Zak | 92. Wednesday, November 28 2007, 23:47

Oh for Gods sakes, whats this this world caming too. In todays world there are people starving to death, our climate is poison, people are blowing them self's in the name of allah and we killing all the animals on this planet.

And you guys and girls are fuckin debating over who should have th name of Macedonia. There's more important issues in stake for man kind than fuckin history.

Zeus | 93. Thursday, November 29 2007, 00:15

And what TA FUCK is that, moron Zak ? (it rhymes with frere Jack, loool)

ps, what is this man kind Zak? some kind of animal or do you mean mankind?

and how many "Gods" can you fit in a "saker"?

True, moron Zak, "whats this this world caming to" LOOOOOL

HINT: write in your mother tongue Zak, if you have a mother that is

george | 94. Thursday, November 29 2007, 00:46

The Macedonian people suffered under the ottomen empire for over 500 years, began in the medi evil times and it finished 1913.
Then the Greeks and Bugarians took over, which inflicked more damage and suffering in the last 95 years to the Macedonian people than what the Ottomen empire did in 500 years. You Greeks should take a look at your self's becouse your like the contries Iran, Syria, Lebanon, all terrorists.
Greeks are terrorists, they blow up the US embassy cos the US reconized the Republic of Macedonia and came up with a bullshit story.
I've never seen this much history about one country called Greece, there are so many books on Greek history you can fill up a Football statium. And if it was possible to read all those books you will find that each book has a different story about their own history. It's all mixed up history, but that wasen't enougth for the Greeks, they even stole the Macedonian history and added it to their own and make things more complicated for the Macedonian people today.
As you can see in this web page all the Greeks have their own virson of history. And if you look at the Macedonians you will see that all they want is to be Macedonian, not Greek Macedonian, just Macedonian.

Daskalos | 95. Thursday, November 29 2007, 00:54

Listen "george"

I have been trying to tell you: WE ACCEPT YOU AS MACEDONIANS.

If we accept you as Macedonians, you irridentist moron, on what basis do you call our entire nation as "terrorist" you muppet?

Do you know many Greeks named Boskovski and Tarkulovski you moron, accused for war crimes at the Hague Court (ICTY)?

george | 96. Thursday, November 29 2007, 00:54

Whats with the name zeus, what you think that your a God. Greek are all Terrorists and some Greeks think their Gods.

george | 97. Thursday, November 29 2007, 00:56

Daskalos i don't think that your a terrorist i can tell by your comments

Daskalos | 98. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:00

My brother "george", Goran Pandev scored against Olympiacos but two strikes by Galletti and Kovacevic sent Lazio to the lions.

george | 99. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:01

I used to know Boskovski's and Tarkulovski in the Greek part of macedonia but that was before they became Papadopolus and mypalos and so on.

Daskalos | 100. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:05

Then I'm sure you haven't heard of Vinozito.

Daskalos | 101. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:13

George, no offence, but the Serbs changed all of your names.

For example, "Gruev" became "Gruevski" overnight. Only those with a romantic sence of Exarchist IMRO ideology retained their old surnames, such as "Gligorov", rather than "Gligorovski" etc.

I suggest you read "Facing the Truth" by your former Prime Minister, Ljupco Georgievski.

george | 102. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:16

Yeah thats true it was also the Bulgarians as well that chanced the names.

Daskalos | 103. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:19

Give me an example please.

george | 104. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:27

Surnames that end with the letters OV are Bulgarian Surnames as you can see in their government.

Daskalos | 105. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:34

Yes I know that, George. My question was as follows:

What was the form of Macedonian surnames before the Macedonians were captured by Serbia and Greece?

Did the Bulgarians change the surnames of Macedonians?

When did they do that?

Zeus | 106. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:42

hey George
i sure am god compared to you ! looool

And a free piece of advise to you MORON:

If you want to kiss American asses you ought to be able to talk their linguo. Otherwise they'll just fuck you and you wont even know what hit you loooool

On second thought, keep posting bull shit. It is a free laugh and i need it LOOOOOL

Zeus | 107. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:53

Hey George,
as much as i laugh with your postings, i must regrettably stop reading them LOOOOL

I'M LOOSING MY GRIP OVER THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE WITH YOU MORON

Don't you in Skopje (what a shithole) learn some english?

We in America don't like "macedonians" who fuxk up our language. We just let them wipe our asses.

Katherine | 108. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:54

LIST OF ANCIENT MACEDONIAN NAMES:

1. Alexandros
2. Phillipos
3. Olympias
4. Perdiccas
5. Parmenion
6. Philotas
7. Cleitus
8. Cassander
9. Attalus
10.Hephaestion
11.Ptolemy
12. Nearchus
13. Aristotle
14. Antigonus

Look at the names of Ancient Macedonians, do they sound like GREEK NAMES or what? Don't sound at all like the slavic names used by Fyrom and it's slavic diaspora.

The most distburbing part is that Fyrom and it's diaspora claim that these names are not Greek names but the so called "Macedonian" names ie Slavic and they use these in their so-called history, when everyone else in the world can see and acknowledge these are Greek names because The Ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The Skopjens are like bricks, thick as bricks, they will deny anything, if they see red they will claim its yellow.

Katherine | 109. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:57

"On Wednesday, November 28 2007, 07:05 by Pete
come on print my previous comment you fucken soft cocks. These fucken greeks can come on here and mouth off and use terms like fucking and idiots and so on and you wont print my post. Fuck you, Fuck the Greek Nation and Fuck all the GREEK people around the world because you will pay for what you have done to my people. My grandfather was MACEDONIAN my father is MACEDONIAN Im MACEDONIAN my children are MACEDONIAN and my grandchildren will be MACEDONIAN and so on forever!!! and you tell me you motherfucking greek what the fuck are you going to do about that? I'll tell you. FUCKING ABSOLUTELY JACKSHIT!!!!!"

Is that the best you can do Bulgari?

Like I said, THICK AS BRICKS!!! Barbaric animals.

Zeus | 110. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:58

Re Daskale

you are trying to argue with a moron LOOOOOOL

The guy has shit for brains, like all "macedonians' in that shithole called Skopje.

george | 111. Thursday, November 29 2007, 01:59

To Daskalos
all Surnames were changed around the same time, when all three Nations took pieces of Macedonia. With the surnames i can't say but as far as i can search in my own family tree i've had the same surname for 375 years.

To Zeus,
i rather kiss the US butt any day, over Greek butt.

Zeus | 112. Thursday, November 29 2007, 02:03

AND

don't underestimate the fact that all these low life morons around Skopje smoke pot all day long.

They are just testing the produce of their labor LoooooL

Zeus | 113. Thursday, November 29 2007, 02:08

I know, I know moron,
you seem so sure of yourself, you obviously NEED to kiss assholes to get along in life, low life, that is, like yours

enough laughs for tonite

good nite all

george | 114. Thursday, November 29 2007, 02:13

You Greeks have called the Macedonians all sorts of names eg.. Slavs, Scorpians, Bugari, Vlah, Albanians and so on...

What do you think the Greeks are made up off, same bloody nationallities.

And people like Zeus comments just make you feel sick. I don't think he knows the meaning of democracy.

Meaning of Democracy: THE RIGHT TO FORM OF GOVERNMENT IN WHICH POWER IS INVESTED IN PEOPLE AS A WHOLE, USUALLY EXERCISED ON THEIR BEHALF BY ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES.

Zeus | 115. Thursday, November 29 2007, 02:54

My friend George
(i have the right to call you my friend, because you are giving me so much laughing, it's like i know you for years)

Read my postings.
I don't deny your right to call yourself whatever you feel like. And i certainly don't object to democratic proceedures (although, i'm afraid, it's not as simple as you seem to believe). Besides, I've been teaching history for over twenty years in the US, a country which obviously inspires you, and not without a good reason.

ALL I'M SAYING is you people should consider the historical evidence, you should respect your neighbors, you should realize that your country is only A PART of Macedonia and, most of all, you must stop hating others in the area and show it so arrogantly.

And, George, democracy is not something you expect to happen out of nowhere, or something you ask your governmrnt to practice, or something you can buy at the international supermarket, especially when this supermarket is run by people who have their own interests to look after. Democracy is a state of mind, a feeling for equality and a passion for the truth, and an aspiration for wisdom. That's what democracy is about George, together with your definition of it.

You sound like a reasonably educated young man. You ought to be able to grasp the the situation.

This is the only way we can ensure a bright future for ourselves and our children in this place that we all live.

Sorry if i insulted you with some of my remarks, but they were just for fun

george | 116. Thursday, November 29 2007, 03:10

No hard feeling Zeus, my point is, since FYROM is part of the old Macedonia and it's asking for a republic, there is no other contry called Macedonia. The Greek part of old Macedonia is a state of Greece, not a country. So FYROM has the right to use the name Macedonia and thay are part of the old Macedonia. So the Macedonian people need a piece of land (which they have) so they can indentify them self's as macedonians, not Greek Macedonian or Bulgarian Macedonian, just simply Macedonian. It has nothing to do with Greek Macedonian history, that history is for you to keep. The macedonian people are looking in to the future as Macedonians and make their own history, your Greek macedonian history has nothing to do with FYROM, you can continue writing books on Greek Macedonia no one is stoping you.

Zeus | 117. Thursday, November 29 2007, 03:18

Ok george,
No hard feelings.
Let the politicians find a solution to the problem and let all of us go on with our lives as neighbors and friends.

NOW, really goodnight LOOOL

george | 118. Thursday, November 29 2007, 03:23

And just adding to my last comments.
When it cames to Alexander the Great, well everyone has their opinion, even the Bugarians are claiming Alexader to be there's. It's only opinions from people, it was over 2500 years ago. I don't think will find the truth till someone discovers his resting place (R.I.P.).

Daskalos | 119. Thursday, November 29 2007, 11:16

Hey George

We, in Greece, we don't give a toss about Alexander the Great or any other ancient fella. May they all rest in peace.

We have been making our own history as a people and as a culture for many years now. We do not need to "steal" ancient Macedonian history in order to look taller.

The fact is that no matter how hard you try to dissassociate the modern Greek culture from the ancient Macedonians or Greeks, you will always stumble across a huge barrier, called GREEK LANGUAGE AND LITERARY TRADITION.

We can assure you that it is in your best interests to make a good friend out of Greeks and please stop hurting our feelings.

It is not our fault that we were classed as Greeks by the West my friend. We were very happy as we were, living next to your Bulgarian, Albanian and Serbian ancestors in peace within the Ottoman Empire as Romans. Some of your ancestors are very likely to have been Greek as well, and vice versa.

We know who you were and so do you, but we respect who you are and who you aspire to be.

Just do not forget to remind the rest of your people that in order to make your own history you need to embrace your own history as well, rather than picking fights with all your neighbours and then shouting "CONSPIRACY".

Because if you continue to follow the path of irridentism, you simply won't manage to make any friends. And if you fail to make friends with your neighbours, well, who do you think is going to bother helping you, your friends, the Americans? The same Americans that called you Bulgarians in 1944, when my grandfather called you Macedonians?

Remember that, ironically, it is our investments that have made your state viable. Try living without us, or pissing us off more than you can afford.

And finally, you cannot demand that all Greeks are as liberal as I am. I have no problem to call you Macedonian and shout it out loud in front of the Greek Prime Minister. I have Macedonian friends and I have spent Christmas with Macedonian friends in my house. Not all Greeks are as open. You cannot call them all "terrorists".

So, you need to find a speedy solution that works, or wait for the walls to crumble.

BIBI | 120. Friday, November 30 2007, 00:02

HI GREEKS???

People are different with nationality and their lenguage.Italians are with Italian,Greeks with Greek,Macedonians with Macedonian.Why you are afraid to say you are Greek but you cant be and Greek and Macedonian. You are or one or the other. Maybe you want to became Macedonians. Then learn MACEDONIAN.

Jasas elines. I MAKEDONIA INE MIA. EDO STI MAKEDONIA, POU MPORITE NA AKUSETE MONO MAKEDONIKI LEKSI.

zdravo grci. MAKEDONIA E EDNA. TUKA KADE STO KE GO CUETE MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK.

greekcock | 121. Friday, November 30 2007, 00:11

Like I said, those motherfucking SCROPIAN morons should me eliminated alltogether.

We are a group of greeks ready to drink blood for breakfast in Skopje.

wait for us moron motherfuckers, we are on our way

but before we kill you, we'll fuck your mothers and sisters!!

AND YOU CAN WATCH

DO YOU ASSHOLE "MACEDONIANS" THINK WE GREEKS HAVE SURVIVED FOR 35 CENTURIES WITHOUT KILLING BARBARIANS LIKE YOURSELVES??? HA HA HA

JUST WAIT AND SEE.

Katherine | 122. Friday, November 30 2007, 02:22

"Why you are afraid to say you are Greek but you cant be and Greek and Macedonian. You are or one or the other. Maybe you want to became Macedonians. Then learn MACEDONIAN."

There is no such a nationality as a Macedonian. A Macedonian is Greek person who lives in the Northern Greek province of Macedonia. Just like the greeks who reside in the Greek Province of Sparta, they are Spartans. Why can't you accept this?

There is no such a language as Macedonian, the language you Bulgarians speak is a Bulgarian dialect. Why can't you accept this?

The language of the Ancient Macedonians was a Greek dialect, that is why the post Alexander The Great period was called the Hellenistic period which lasted 300 years. How can you slavs be Macedonians, when the Ancient Macedonians were Greeks? You can't have two Macedonians, there is only ONE MACEDONIA AND THAT IS GREEK.

ONLY A GREEK CAN BE CALLED A MACEDONIAN. You know this deep down, but you won't dare to admit it.

Thick as Bricks, that's all yous are.

greekcock | 123. Friday, November 30 2007, 03:00

to BIBI

just because you speak our language, which means you used to be greek, before the bulgarians and the Turks went over you,

WE WILL TORTURE YOU BEFORE WE KILL YOU

and we'll let you watch...
you'll enjoy it

We will !!
ha ha ha

greekcock | 124. Friday, November 30 2007, 03:04

The only place Greece has a claim in the Balkans is Skopje.

Not only we will claim it soon, but together with Albanians we will eliminate the bulgari and the Scorpians.

So keep talking morons. You'll be sorry soon

Stefan | 125. Friday, November 30 2007, 03:47

In response to Katherine's comment...

Ethnographers and linguists have classified Macedonian as a seperate language, and Macedonians as a seperate nationality. This is easy to verify.

Yes there are similarities with the Bulgarian language, but many languages have similarities.

For the record, - I have been to Greece 3 times and love the country and the people. You have contributed many great things to the world. But as in my previous comments, my only concern is with how you treat the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece. You are denying that they exist or say they are just Bulgarians.

The Macedonian government has officially renounced any territorial claims on Northern Greece, so your government should realise that they have nothing to fear in recognising their rights...

greekcock | 126. Friday, November 30 2007, 13:38

he he he Stefan
Yea, you are a "separate nationality". Separate from all others in the Balkans. You are just not "macedonians", exept of the fact that you are now settled (not for long, i guess) in a small part of macedonia, AND macedonia has been a province of ancient Greece, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire and the modern state of Greece.
SO YOU ARE INTRUDERS and as such you ought to copmply with common sense and interests.

Otherwise, you go back to where you came from - the steppes of Central Aaia that is - or perrish. It's your choice. Personally i would suggest the latter: perrish, that is loool

Everybody who himself or his family comes from Macedonia has the right to be and call himslef macedonian. All of them: Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, all over the world. Also everybody who feels like it can be called macedonian, if he likes. All these people can, and do, speak deiffernt languages.

But you, MORONS, keep saying that yours is "macedonian" language and you are "macedonian" ethnic group. You just insult the miilions of other people who have lived or live now in the geographic region of Macedonia. And these people have lived next to each other for many centuries.

It is amazing how you morons insist in the old Tito's doctrine.

You have become the laughing stock of many an academic and political communities.

BUT WE GREEK MACEDONIANS ARE THROUGH LAUGHING WITH YOU, MORONS. We will now take action, and this will not be good for you... Although we do want to be able to live together in peace, you are just not able to grasp the situation.

And there are a lot of ways we can make you suffer: believe you me. We will start with making you starve to death. That's easy. The final stage will be to physically send you back where you came from.

As for your... government? Now that'a joke loool

And, yes, there are currently in Northern Greece something like twenty to fifty thousand people who identify themselves as macedonians of Slavic decent and speak the same language as you. They must have all the rights that people in Greece enjoy. Actually they do. But some of them - inspired by your own nationalistic morons - try to insult our common sense looool

And finally, we are not... afraid of you, as Greeks. Our language, our culture, our civilization has survived around here for 35 centuries. It is absolutely rediculous to even consider that a minimal bunch of assholes like yourselves can endanger our country.

It is us, macedonians, who are ragging against your idiotic claims. The rest of the Greeks don't give a shit about you.

Daskalos | 127. Friday, November 30 2007, 15:19

Hi Stefan

The only thing the Greek government does not do is to focus on maltreating the Macedonian-Greeks of Greece. They prefer maltreating indiscriminately all Greek pensioners and young families instead.

The Macedonian propaganda over the last 16 years has ensured that all Macedonians believe that the Greeks are "evil enemies of Macedonia", because "they changed the Macedonians' names and brutally Hellenised them" etc.

I do not deny that incidents of this nature were carried out by the Metaxas regime before WWII. However, the overall portrayal of Greek behaviour towards ethnic Macedonian Greek citizens is inaccurate and sometimes blatantly false.

Let me give you an example. After the end of the Balkan War of '13, population exchanges were made, and many Macedonians left Greece and Bulgaria for the then Serbian Kingdom and the province of Vardarska Banovina (present RoM).

Of course, during the war, ethnic Macedonians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians were ALL displaced, as a result of the actions of the IMARO on the one hand, and the Greek and Serbian armies on the other.

In particular, thousands of Greeks were "evacuated" from Ohrid and Bitola, as well as Bulgaria, before settling at the Greek Macedonian provinces.

Millions of Greeks were subsequently exchanged or ethnically cleansed from Pontus and Smyrna in Turkey, by the Turks. Many of these Greeks found refuge in Greek Macedonia.

You see, the idea that "Greeks ethnically cleansed Aegean Macedonia from its native population before replacing it with Turks" is not as simple as you may think.

Also, about the freedom of association or assembly of the Macedonians of Greece, well, I urge you to have a look at the website of the Rainbow Party (Vinozito). http://www.florina.org/html/main/ab...

Don't you think that it is IRONIC and PARADOXICAL for a party that acts freely within the Greek border to assert that it is being denied of its political rights by Greece?

However, I have to say that I do agree with many of their positions. My main point of agreement with Vinozito or with the Macedonian government is that the Greek citizens of Macedonia should be entitled to possess, should they require, a Macedonian passport, without them being harassed by Greek, or indeed Macedonian immigration officials.

And finally, about the names of Macedonians in Greece being changed by Greek officials...

Well, Stefan, your entire free and indepenent nation still goes by the names that the Serbs forced upon your people in 1913, whereby Dame Gruev would become Dame Gruevski overnight.

Don't you think that it is ONLY SLIGHTLY hypocritical for Macedonians to keep slagging Greece off about that?

Besides, some of you still think that, although your original names end in -OV, like most Bulgarians, this is attributed to Bulgarian fascism, rather than the historic ethnic relation between Macedonians and Bulgarians, as seen by all Balkan and world historians apart from some at St Kiril and Metodij University.

Some of you even think that the Illinden uprising took place only in Macedonia, completely disregarding the fact that in Adrianople, the eastern leg of the IMARO was simultaneously fighting for the Bulgarian cause.

greekcock | 128. Friday, November 30 2007, 17:37

To Stefan
Yes, you are a “separate nationality”. Different from any other in the region. In Macedonia, they have lived for ages many nationalities, in peace and respecting each other. They were of different ethnic origins: Greeks, Slavs, Armenians, Bulgarians and Turks, to name a few. They all kept their national identities, their language, their culture. None has ever claimed exclusivity. The region itself has been part of ancient Greece, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire and the modern Greek State. You are intruders to the region. You are a creation of Tito's geopolitical madness. Of course you have the right to existence and to self-determination. But you live in only a small part of Macedonia and by no means are entitled to define the whole region.

Everybody can call himself/herself Macedonian. Even people who themselves or their families have never been to Macedonia. All these people can and will retain their national origins. But you, denouncing the fact that you are actually Bulgarians (and this you have a right to do), you declare yourselves as of “Macedonian Nation”, and by doing so, you defy common sense, insult your neighbors, and become the laughing stock of many an academic and political communities.

It is amazing how a small bunch of desolate and backward people can stick to such a ridiculous claim and a name imposed on them, actually, by the Serbs after the Balkan wars. And how they try to build a 'national identity' on lies and fiction

And, don't flatter yourselves. Greeks and Greece don't give a damn about you. It is us, Macedonians who are insulted and pissed with you. But we are through laughing with you. It is time for action. We will start by starving you to death, and then we'll see what happens.

You are such morons, that you actually believe that we Greeks can ever be afraid of you. We have been here, our language, our culture, our civilization, for 35 centuries. Do you reckon that a bunch of barbarian Scythes from the steppes of central Asia can ever threaten us? We would like to be able to live close to each other in peace and prosperity. But you don't seem to be able to grasp the situation.

Finally, yes, there is a minority of twenty to fifty thousand people living in Northern Greece who declare themselves Macedonians of Slavic decent. They speak a language similar to yours. They must enjoy the same human and civil rights like everybody else in Greece. They actually do. But a small portion of them – inspired by your idiotic propaganda – try to stir up ridiculous claims. I urge anybody of this minority who feels maltreated in Greece to come out in public with evidence, and I will personally do what I can to bring the culprits to justice. Greek and international.

greekcock | 129. Friday, November 30 2007, 17:38

To Stefan
Yes, you are a “separate nationality”. Different from any other in the region. In Macedonia, they have lived for ages many nationalities, in peace and respecting each other. They were of different ethnic origins: Greeks, Slavs, Armenians, Bulgarians and Turks, to name a few. They all kept their national identities, their language, their culture. None has ever claimed exclusivity. The region itself has been part of ancient Greece, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire and the modern Greek State. You are intruders to the region. You are a creation of Tito's geopolitical madness. Of course you have the right to existence and to self-determination. But you live in only a small part of Macedonia and by no means are entitled to define the whole region.

Everybody can call himself/herself Macedonian. Even people who themselves or their families have never been to Macedonia. All these people can and will retain their national origins. But you, denouncing the fact that you are actually Bulgarians (and this you have a right to do), you declare yourselves as of “Macedonian Nation”, and by doing so, you defy common sense, insult your neighbors, and become the laughing stock of many an academic and political communities.

It is amazing how a small bunch of desolate and backward people can stick to such a ridiculous claim and a name imposed on them, actually, by the Serbs after the Balkan wars. And how they try to build a 'national identity' on lies and fiction

And, don't flatter yourselves. Greeks and Greece don't give a damn about you. It is us, Macedonians who are insulted and pissed with you. But we are through laughing with you. It is time for action. We will start by starving you to death, and then we'll see what happens.

You are such morons, that you actually believe that we Greeks can ever be afraid of you. We have been here, our language, our culture, our civilization, for 35 centuries. Do you reckon that a bunch of barbarian Scythes from the steppes of central Asia can ever threaten us? We would like to be able to live close to each other in peace and prosperity. But you don't seem to be able to grasp the situation.

Finally, yes, there is a minority of twenty to fifty thousand people living in Northern Greece who declare themselves Macedonians of Slavic decent. They speak a language similar to yours. They must enjoy the same human and civil rights like everybody else in Greece. They actually do. But a small portion of them – inspired by your idiotic propaganda – try to stir up ridiculous claims. I urge anybody of this minority who feels maltreated in Greece to come out in public with evidence, and I will personally do what I can to bring the culprits to justice. Greek and international.

greekcock | 130. Friday, November 30 2007, 20:01

To Stefan
Yes, you are a “separate nationality”. Different from any other in the region. In Macedonia, they have lived for ages many nationalities, in peace and respecting each other. They were of different ethnic origins: Greeks, Slavs, Armenians, Bulgarians and Turks, to name a few. They all kept their national identities, their language, their culture. None has ever claimed exclusivity. The region itself has been part of ancient Greece, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire and the modern Greek State. You are intruders to the region. You are a creation of Tito's geopolitical madness. Of course you have the right to existence and to self-determination. But you live in only a small part of Macedonia and by no means are entitled to define the whole region.

Everybody can call himself/herself Macedonian. Even people who themselves or their families have never been to Macedonia. All these people can and will retain their national origins. But you, denouncing the fact that you are actually Bulgarians (and this you have a right to do), you declare yourselves as of “Macedonian Nation”, and by doing so, you defy common sense, insult your neighbors, and become the laughing stock of many an academic and political communities.

It is amazing how a small bunch of desolate and backward people can stick to such a ridiculous claim and a name imposed on them, actually, by the Serbs after the Balkan wars. And how they try to build a 'national identity' on lies and fiction

And, don't flatter yourselves. Greeks and Greece don't give a damn about you. It is us, Macedonians who are insulted and pissed with you. But we are through laughing with you. It is time for action. We will start by starving you to death, and then we'll see what happens.

You are such morons, that you actually believe that we Greeks can ever be afraid of you. We have been here, our language, our culture, our civilization, for 35 centuries. Do you reckon that a bunch of barbarian Scythes from the steppes of central Asia can ever threaten us? We would like to be able to live close to each other in peace and prosperity. But you don't seem to be able to grasp the situation.

Finally, yes, there is a minority of twenty to fifty thousand people living in Northern Greece who declare themselves Macedonians of Slavic decent. They speak a language similar to yours. The must enjoy the same human and civil rights like everybody else in Greece. They actually do. But a small portion of them – inspired by your idiotic propaganda – try to stir up ridiculous claims. I urge anybody of this minority who feels maltreated in Greece to come out in public with evidence, and I will personally do what I can to bring the culprits to justice. Greek and international.

Meanwhile shape up or die

greekcock | 131. Friday, November 30 2007, 20:23

To Stefan
Yes, you are a “separate nationality”. Different from any other in the region. In Macedonia, they have lived for ages many nationalities, in peace and respecting each other. They were of different ethnic origins: Greeks, Slavs, Armenians, Bulgarians and Turks, to name a few. They all kept their national identities, their language, their culture. None has ever claimed exclusivity. The region itself has been part of ancient Greece, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire and the modern Greek State. You are intruders to the region. You are a creation of Tito's geopolitical madness. Of course you have the right to existence and to self-determination. But you live in only a small part of Macedonia and by no means are entitled to define the whole region.

Everybody can call himself/herself Macedonian. Even people who themselves or their families have never been to Macedonia. All these people can and will retain their national origins. But you, denouncing the fact that you are actually Bulgarians (and this you have a right to do), you declare yourselves as of “Macedonian Nation”, and by doing so, you defy common sense, insult your neighbors, and become the laughing stock of many an academic and political communities.

It is amazing how a small bunch of desolate and backward people can stick to such a ridiculous claim and a name imposed on them, actually, by the Serbs after the Balkan wars. And how they try to build a 'national identity' on lies and fiction

And, don't flatter yourselves. Greeks and Greece don't give a damn about you. It is us, Macedonians who are insulted and pissed with you. But we are through laughing with you. It is time for action. We will start by starving you to death, and then we'll see what happens.

You are such fools, that you actually believe that we Greeks can ever be afraid of you. We have been here, our language, our culture, our civilization, for 35 centuries. Do you reckon that a bunch of barbarian Scythes from the steppes of central Asia can ever threaten us? We would like to be able to live close to each other in peace and prosperity. But you don't seem to be able to grasp the situation.

Finally, yes, there is a minority of twenty to fifty thousand people living in Northern Greece who declare themselves Macedonians of Slavic decent. They speak a language similar to yours. The must enjoy the same human and civil rights like everybody else in Greece. They actually do. But a small portion of them – inspired by your idiotic propaganda – try to stir up ridiculous claims. I urge anybody of this minority who feels maltreated in Greece to come out in public with evidence, and I will personally do what I can to bring the culprits to justice. Greek and international.

Meanwhile shape up or die

george | 132. Friday, November 30 2007, 23:59

The person that goes by the name "Greekcock" should change it to "Greekcock sucking".

To Daskalos, I think i undrstand about the surnames, but around the same time those surnames were changed the Greeks chenged many cities, town and villiges names as well. Why?

Katherine | 133. Saturday, December 1 2007, 02:50

In response to Stefan's comment...

"Ethnographers and linguists have classified Macedonian as a seperate language, and Macedonians as a seperate nationality. This is easy to verify."

There is no such a language as a Macedonian language, it is a fraud, that is not recognised by scientists, Ethnographers or linguists, so stop fooling yourself Stefan.

I'll tell you a story. A man once came in where I work and we were talking about languages. He told me he speaks Lebanese, Bulgarian and "Macedonian", I replied, when you say "Macedonian" do you mean "Yugoslavian"? He replied, no I mean Bulgarian. I replied, what do you mean? just wanting to hear what he said, he replied, BULGARIAN AND "MACEDONIAN" is the SAME LANGUAGE, it's only a different accent, that's because the "Macedonians" are really Bulgarians themselves, but they call themselves Macedonians, but, everyone in Europe knows that the Real Macedonia is inside Greece. I told him I am a Hellenic Macedonian and he replied, "You are an authentic Macedonian (Greek)" and then he said, "Alexander The Great was from Greek Macedonia, not Fyrom."

"my only concern is with how you treat the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece. You are denying that they exist or say they are just Bulgarians."

Their is no such a thing as a "Macedonian" minority in Greece. That is something Fyrom says, to make Greece look bad. It's all lies after lies after lies. Fyrom denies Macedonia is Greek, Greece says the truth, that yous are Bulgarians.

"The Macedonian government has officially renounced any territorial claims on Northern Greece, so your government should realise that they have nothing to fear in recognising their rights"

All talk. If the Skopje government has renounced claims on Northern Greece, then why have they called their airport "Alexander The Great", show maps of a Greater Macedonia and all the rest of the lies? Can you answer that Stefan?

By the way, I like your Greek name STEFAN, oh let me guess, you call this name "Makedonski name". Is there anything yous don't take from the Greeks?

george | 134. Saturday, December 1 2007, 05:19

To Katherine,

Looks like your one of the terrorests, A man came to your work and told you that the Macedonians are Bulgarians. If that man came back and told you to jump of the nearest bridge would you do it?

During the balkan wars the Greeks not only canged the surnames of the Macedonian people they also changed the names of every town in the Greek part of Macedonia. Why?

Thats why Greece does'nt want to reconize Macedonia cos back then they took that piece illigally

greekcock | 135. Saturday, December 1 2007, 11:24

Say what you may,
you still going down MORONS looool

It's a matter of time

AMAZING.how a bunch of backward idiots stick to Titos propagana, defying history and common sense loool

Daskalos | 136. Saturday, December 1 2007, 13:07

Hi George

About the names of Macedonian cities.

The names of the cities in all the Eastern Roman realm were Greek during the reign of the Eastern Roman Empire.

As you know, the official administrative language of the Empire was Greek, since the 7th century AD, replacing Latin by order of Emperor Heraclius the Armenian, in response to popular demand. The official language of the Patriarchate was also Greek.

There is no doubt that by the time the Old Slavs of Macedonia, the Serbs or the Bulgarians arrived in the Balkan region, city names were Greek within the borders of Eastern Orthodox Rome.

Skopi, Monastiri, Sofia (old Serdi, in Slavic "Sredec", Adrianoupolis, Thessaloniki, Constantinoupolis, Filippoupolis, Argyrokastron etc, and their legacy, leave no doubt to anyone but fools over their origin.

When the Ottomans conquered the Balkans, names were changed, but still reflected their old origins.

For instance, Skopi became "Ushkub", Thessaloniki "Selanik", Constantinoupolis "Istanbul". That is historical fact, George.

Your people and the Bulgarians of Macedonia referred to Thessaloniki as "Solun", Florina as "Lerin", Kilkis as "Kukush" etc.

The Greeks referred to them using the old Greek names. No Greek in Thessaloniki would refer to it as "Solun" at any point in time.

When the Greek state was victorious over Bulgaria and the SMARO, IMARO in the second Balkan war, a TREATY was signed, the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest, where the Ottomans gave South Macedonia to the Greeks, insofar as this reflected a) concetrated Greek population in the region and b) a penalty to Bulgaria over its conduct.

When the Greeks changed the names, as you say, of the cities, they changed them from Turkish into Greek. Did the Serbs not change Skopi or Ushkub into Skopje? And how about Monastiri? It's called "Bitola" these days isn't it? What happened to the Greek schools of Ohrid? Are they still buzzing full of Greek children?

Do you see now that the VMRO-DPMNE propaganda has a big right-wing, irridentist and expansionist hole right in the middle?

Finally, International Treaties are not "illegal", George. Further, at the time, the predecessors to the IMRO/VMRO, that is, the IMARO and other older linked terrorist branches such as BMARC/SMARO were all commanded by Stojan Danev.

Read this comment by Hristo Tatarchev:

"We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later."

You'll find this at "The first central committee of IMRO. Memoirs of d-r Hristo Tatarchev", Materials for the Macedonian liberation movement, book IX (series of the Macedonian scientific institute of IMRO, prof. Lyubomir Miletich), Sofia, 1928, p. 102

Now, Danev was the Bulgarian Minister that ordered a surprise armed attack against Greeks and Serbs in order to capture the whole of Macedonia, for the benefits of Bulgaria. The Greeks, in Law, responded in self-defence, George.

Finally, I appreciate your feelings that anyone or anything that has come out of Macedonia is a product of your nation, but I think that you are confusing the concept of nation with geography, rather than civilisation, culture, education and language.

Alek | 137. Saturday, December 1 2007, 14:00

To greekcock(you must be such a small man) and katherine( a very greek name, spare me katerinosopoulos, ahhh that sounds more greek) at the end of the day, as Pete said previously out of his obvious frustration, if your so mighty and so powerful attack us, what the fuk are you waiting for?
Also, you please tell me honestly now, and dont get upset and all defense on me now, how do you honestly think you are going to stop huge numbers of Macedonians around the world(regardless of your bullshit history theories and so on)please tell me how are you going to stop them from telling their children that they are Macedonian. I'll tell you. Your not. So im sorry at the end of the day, you have millions of people around the world who feel strongly about the Macedonian Republic and there is jackshit you can do about it. Take it as you may but that is the reality of the situation.

Daskalos | 138. Saturday, December 1 2007, 16:35

I agree with you Alek. It is time that Greeks started referring to our northern neighbours as ethnic Macedonians.

Calling them Bulgarians, when they themselves state that they are Macedonians is unfair.

Having said that, it is time for ethnic Macedonians to understand that they cannot keep up with their irridentist propaganda against Greece or indeed any of their neighbours.

It is important that a democratic Macedonia exists in the Balkans, in the EU and NATO.

However, Macedonia cannot demand that countries members to the EU and NATO, such as Bulgaria and Greece, change their allegedly backward mentalities, without Macedonia making the effort to respect her own ethnic minorities and their linguistic and political rights.

The whole world witnessed in 2001 and still witnesses the attitude of Macedonia towards a third of its population, and Macedonia's attempts to enable Boskovski and Tarculovski, two Macedonian officials/war criminals to walk unpunished from the Hague Court in 2005 and 2007.

Macedonia must also stop pretending to be "a suppressed ancient nation of... proto-Slavic Macedonians superior to sub-Saharan African Greeks and Turkic Mongol Bulgarians, directly descending from Alexander the Great" and all this nazi bullcrap.

Your universities continue to produce such works, suggesting purity and superiority of Macedonian DNA over Greeks and Bulgarians.

Your academics are falsifying linguistic data on the Rosetta Stone. Inspite of Champollion's masterful de-coding work, unqualified linguists and self-proclaimed historians are publishing works suggesting that your nation's language forms the foundation of all language on earth.

How can you expect anyone to allow you to march your way into the EU or NATO unchecked, when you behave like a group of lunatics run by a former terrorist organisation (VMRO-DPMNE) ?

You see, the so called "name dispute" between Macedonia and Greece is not just about the name of your country.

It is mostly about your hostile attitude towards your own people, your neighbours and your arrogant behaviour, perhaps a bit TOO arrogant for such a small Balkan nation.

george | 139. Saturday, December 1 2007, 17:18

To Daskalos,

My understanding of divided Macedonia is that it was divided to stop communism spreading to greece.

In Germany they found old maps of during World War I and on those maps it clearly states Macedonia as a whole country. Germany did not support Macedonia in fact Germany had other ideas in World War II, they wanted a Greather Albania since they were allies.

Also in Rome the collisium over 2000 years old they have a map inside for tourist to see, it displays a map of the whole region were the romans conqured. The map has Greece and Macedonia as seprate with a line in between or border.
Now you can see why Italy is so supportive of Macedonia.

george | 140. Saturday, December 1 2007, 17:45

I always wanted to know why has Greece changed to celibrating Easter to the old Orthadox calender and Chrismas to the new calender. It was a threat by Greece.
Greece had threatened Russia if they continue to spread communism they will change to cathlics, thats way the western powers (England, France and Russia) at that time decided to devide Macedonia.

Daskalos | 141. Saturday, December 1 2007, 18:39

Hi George

When the Macedonian region was split in 1913, there was no Communist Party, no Macedonian government and no Macedonian representatives in the Ottoman Parliament.

The people of Macedonia further declared themselves to the Ottoman Sultan as "Bulgarians", due to fear or ethnic confusion.

Russia became Communist in 1918. When Eastern Europe became Communist, Macedonia had undergone a transformation from a province of the Serbian Kingdom (Vardarska Banovina) into the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, within Yugoslavia, in 1944.

However, there is plenty of substance in what you are saying.

It is no secret that during the Greek Civil War (1944-1949), the Greek Communists were indeed funded by Yugoslavia.

During this war, Greeks and Macedonians were fighting together against the army of the former dictatoric Greek regime.

For most Greeks classed as communists, at the time, this was a struggle of the independent ideology of freedom from repression against nationalism, rather than a communist struggle.

When Stalin put pressure on Tito to stop funding the Greeks, thousands of Macedonians left Greece in fear of reprisals. As you know, the communists lost the Greek Civil War.

That is how most Macedonians left Greece after WWII to go to Yugoslavia or indeed the USA, where they formed a thriving diaspora community. Some of them still follow their Greek habits, choosing to attend the Greek over the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

I am not aware of any German or Italian maps, however, I will tell you that:

When the Germans occupied Macedonia, the Bulgarians were with them, taking their revenge on Greeks for their victory over the IMARO in 1912-'13.

Before 1944 there was no country called Macedonia. The Macedonian region had been a multiethnic Ottoman region split into three Vilaets (Ushkub, Bitola and Selanik) until 1913, when it was split between Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria, the three states representing the three nations recognised -at the time- by the League of Nations (predecessor of the UN).

The Italians are right to be supportive of Macedonia and I agree with them, myself being Greek.

However, although there may be an ancient map depicting Macedonia, I find it impossible for an ancient map to be depicting "Greece", because, the first time that a Greek state is formed, my friend, is in 1830 AD.

Further, there is no such region called "GREECE", but rather regions such as Macedonia, Thrace, Thessaly, Epirus, Attica, Morea, Crete, where the Greek people live.

So, the map you are referring to is most likely a product of modern Macedonian propaganda.

The Greek Orthodox calendar changed in order to synchronise Greece with the developed world, rather than as a threat to Russia.

george | 142. Saturday, December 1 2007, 19:22

In 1830 when Greece was formed, Macedonia was not part of that formation of regions, also it was around the same time that those regions that formed Greece were free from the Ottomen empire.
I know that Thrace and Macedonia came in formation later, but if Macedonia was Greek why wasn't it part of Greece in 1830 when it formed.
Macedonia was under the Ottomens till 1913 when the Ottomen empire collapsed, and then Macedonia was divided by the western powers with out asking the Macedonian people. Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia wern't going to ask the Macedonian people if they wanted their own country.
Till this day if you ask a Bulgarian about the Macedonians they will tell you that their Bulgarians, if you ask the Greeks about the Macedonians they will say their Greek and if you ask the Serbs about Macedonians they will tell you that their Serbian and come from South Serbia.
The problem is these three nations can't decide who the Macedonians belong too, the Macedonians want their own land called Macedonia so they can identify them self without the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian influants.
And for some reason the Greeks are the only one objecting from those three nations, and i know why becouse some how they incoperated the Macedonian history in the Greek history going back to 2500 years ago.

Daskalos | 143. Saturday, December 1 2007, 20:41

Hi George

I agree with you in part.

It is of course true that South Macedonia did not become part of the independent Greek state in 1830, but much later, in 1913.

This does not mean, however, that Greek people were not living in Macedonia. The Greeks of Macedonia were the first nation in the region to revolt against the Ottomans back in 1821-22.

Greek commander Emmanouil Pappas had the support of the monks of Mount Athos (the Holy Mountain) and the inhabitants of Kassandra, Polygyros and the Mademohoria.

The revolution was unsuccessful and the Greek bands were finally crushed by the Ottomans with the Kassandra disaster (October 1821) and Emmanouil Pappas' flight to Hydra (November 1821).

The efforts of Nikolaos Kasomoulis, the local leader and a member of the 'Philiki Etaireia', to find help in southern Greece were of little consequence.

The "armatoloi" of Mount Olympus, with no organization whatsoever, fought for a mere few weeks (from late March to early April 1822). A large number of Greek refugees from Macedonia escaped to the Northern Sporades islands at that time.

I accept nevertheless that the majority of the population of Macedonia were not Greek, especially in Vardar and Pirin.

In my view, the Macedonian problem is not about a Greek-Bulgarian-Serbian conspiracy, although it may initially seem so.

The reason lies in what I describe as an "ethnological confusion", as well as, Balkan nationalism as this emerged in the 19th century (although Greek nationalism was slightly older).

A Macedonian friend of mine has given me some very good examples on this. During the 19th century, it is recorded that it was possible for one mother to give birth to one Serb, one Bulgarian and one Greek!!! The three brothers would all communicate between them in the same language, but they would go to different churches and mingle with Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks respectively.

Also, some people, would see that they could identify with all three nationalities!!! For example, Serbian traditions would mix with the Bulgarian language and Greek Orthodox religion and customs.

These phenomena confused not only these people, but also the Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek inhabitants of Macedonia, the Ottomans, Balkan and Western historians, academics, anthropologists and politicians the world over.

These people were YOU!!!

Zeus | 144. Saturday, December 1 2007, 22:23

I don't have anything against a Macedonian state. On the contrary. Any true Macedonian would only welcome such a state. Actually, this is for all of us a dream-come-true.

But I do object to a Macedonian state dominated by the people of Skopje, or to put it more “politically” correct, the Macedonians of Skopje. They are – of course – Macedonians, but they are not the ONLY Macedonians. Not even the majority of Macedonians.

A new Macedonian state should be multi ethnic, multilingual and multicultural. But unfortunately, a lot of evil people – and not at all from Skopje – are just waiting for the opportunity to impose their will on such a state: to impose their cultural dominance on it and ultimately to direct it politically to racial and fascistic paths. This is not acceptable to any democratic and peace loving individual in the region.

My opinion is that Skopje should enter NATO and EU and then a nucleus of ethnic Macedonian will be formed, under the above mentioned principles. To do that, Skopje must yield to some of their neighbors' demands, particularly the ones from Greece. We must keep in mind that most of the Greeks who lead these campaign are themselves Macedonians. And I don't mean just residents of Macedonia in the last fifty years (because they are some of those too).

Unfortunately, the people who heat up the issue from the side of Skopje are not at all aiming at this. At least they are not convincing.

So, brothers and sisters Macedonians, peace be upon us all, and lets find things that unite us, rather than those that will ultimately destroy us.

Finally, I don't trust all those “west point” intruders from diaspora, that do not live in the region, and probably never will. No offense, but I think that if these people don't live in the past, their opinion is biased by it.

And about this Alexander issue: forget it. He was really a butcher of peoples and probably a Greek (what can be worse than that LOL).

george | 145. Sunday, December 2 2007, 05:19

I have nothing against Greek people, i've got few good friend that are Greek even my father in law is Greek Macedonian from a place called Voden i don't know what the Greek name is.

To me is seems there is lots of History mixed up, both Greek and Macedonian even Bulgarian. The place i live now Canada there is one history and it's all the same along the lines

To be honest there is not mach difference in colture in the balkan nations (appart from the Albanians) we all very similar and share the same religion.

Daskalos | 146. Sunday, December 2 2007, 14:55

George

"Voden" is "Edessa".

Zeus

Do you know how much of our taxpayers' money have gone to the pockets of US politicians in order to keep the Greek diaspora plugged into the Metaxas era?

Barack Obama's election campaign has been funded entirely by our desparate attempt to "shake" the Macedonians by passing yet another useless Resolution at Congress.

At the same time Magginas and the rest of the 300 scavengers are backstabbing the entire working population of Greece by looting our pension funds.

If you ask me if it is worth sabotaging my grandmother's healthcare because some Vlach or Albanian wants to remain proud to be Greek in the United States, I will tell you NO!

If you ask me who is to blame for our collective inability to create a fair, efficient and productive society I will tell you: TO KAKO ΣΑΣ ΤΟ ΚΕΦΑΛΙ, ΚΩΛΟΕΛΛHΝΕΣ.

LOOOOOOL

Zeus | 147. Sunday, December 2 2007, 21:27

To Daskalos

You are absolutely right!

These people are ruining everything around here.

But, I didn't know about Obama's campaign

I must quote the late Elias Petropoulos, who said:
"Ο μαχαιρώνων τους Έλληνες, εμφανώς τους ευεργετεί"

I don't dare translate this one LOL

george | 148. Sunday, December 2 2007, 23:59

To Daskalos,

Do you know much about the Pondians, my friend says his family came from pondia and that they are the pure Greeks with blue eyes and blonde hair.
All i know about pondia is that it's now the Turks have it, I would like to know more if you have info to share.

george | 149. Monday, December 3 2007, 00:11

If you get a chance to see the website of Vinozito, read the article called "Letter to Matthew Nimetz".

Daskalos | 150. Monday, December 3 2007, 13:53

Zeus

Εσύ πιάνεις πουλιά στον αέρα. Παρεπιπτόντως...θυμίσου κι αυτό-

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i...

George

I agree with Vinozito. I have to say though that if the Macedonian government was as fair as Vinozito, perhaps the problem would have been resolved earlier.

About Pontus, I am going to tell you a few things:

Pontus is a region in northern Turkey formerly lived by Pontian Greeks. These Pontian Greeks were exiled from Turkey and were forced to make their way into the Greek state after WWI. Many of them settled in Greek Macedonia.

Nobody, NOBODY is a pure Greek, pure Macedonian, pure Egyptian, pure Roman, pure Jewish or pure Persian. All ancient peoples are extinct.

However, the Greek and Jewish CULTURES (not people) are the only ones that have survived, because they both used religion as their vehicle.

In the 19th-20th century, these cultures were turned into people, nations and finally states.

The sensitivity of the modern Greek people towards Macedonia is explained as such:

Too much blood has been shed. There is thus no room for more disputes in Macedonia, and the present name dispute brings back to the Greeks memories of the Balkan war and the Greek civil war.

The modern Greek culture was shared to a large extent by the ancient Greeks and the ancient Macedonians. This includes use of the same language and literary tradition. The modern Greeks acknowledge that and believe that in a way they are the carriers of the ancient peoples' traditions.

Some modern Greeks believe that they are related to the ancient Greeks by means of sharing the same blood or DNA. That, however, is an absurdity that usually comes from the mouths of illiterate and deeply insecure individuals.

Similarly, some modern Macedonians believe that they are genetically related to the ancient Macedonians. Well, I think that Vinozito has given you an answer on that already. After all, they are the ethnic Macedonians that have remained in Greece, at old Macedonia. They must know something.

Zeus | 151. Monday, December 3 2007, 14:18

Daskale,
Thanks for that interview of Elias Petropoulos.

george | 152. Tuesday, December 4 2007, 05:10

thanks daskalos, did you now that your name 'Daskalos' means 'teacher' in Macedonian

Giorgos | 153. Tuesday, December 4 2007, 12:23

to Daskalos

Can you write all these about Pontos and mail me so that I can upload it in the blog as a different topic on greek history? And please send some comments on democracy if you want. I think that they may be helpful! thanks

Daskalos | 154. Tuesday, December 4 2007, 13:13

Hi Zeus

No problem, I'm sure you were aware of it, I just thought it was relevant, since we are talking about Macedonia.

Zdravo George,

I did not know that "daskalos" means "teacher" in Macedonian, but I can tell you that in Greek, it means exactly the same.

Hi Giorgo

I will send you some comments on democracy or our modern Greek state, or the Balkans, or Europe or the UN one of these days. If only you would set up an address I could mail you at and let me know of such address.

Zeus | 155. Tuesday, December 4 2007, 17:55

Daskale,
i didn't know about that interview. My thanks were siscere.
I could had guessed that Elias would have said what he did, judging from his books.

Daskalos | 156. Wednesday, December 5 2007, 15:09

Zeus

Join the debate at:

http://athens.cafebabel.com/en/post...

Your informed comments are welcome.

Romios | 157. Friday, December 28 2007, 11:08

The worst thing ever to happen to the Balkans, and to the Middle East, was the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. All through history, whenever our areas have been under the control of a large empire (Egyptian, Persian, Aleandrian generals [I use that term to avoid Macedonian or Greek or whatever, even the "correct" Hellenistic], Roman, Byzantine or Ottoman, we have had peace, all our cities and lands have had mixed populations with the resulting high level of prosperity and culture. Now that we all seperated from each other, hating each other, look how miserable we are. Greeks and Turks, Macedonians and Albanians, Serbs and Bulgarians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Palestinians, Egyptians, Armenians, once we all lived together. We ate the same food, danced the same dances, sang the same songs. And... GUES WHAT? We still do all those things, but we imagine we are DIFFERENT?! We are all brothers and sisters, but it is in the interests of the Great Powers to feed and encourage our petty hatreds. Shame on us all.

Romios | 158. Friday, December 28 2007, 11:15

I forgot the Jews, who were such an important part of Constantinople/Istanbul, Thessaloniki/Solun, the Middle East. And before some Nazi accuses me of being a "Jew-Lover", my wife is Palestinian, so I'll save some time and tell you to shut up from now.

I've obviously forgotten many other ethnicities and religious groups, so sorry to you all, it was not meant.

And as this whole thread started as a discussion of who are Macedonians and who aren't, and what Alexander is, let me share my opinion. Alexander was ALEXANDRIAN, He started something new, something of his own. It was a synthesis of Hellenic, Ippirotic, Egyptian and Persian elements. He wasn't Greek or Macedonian or Martian. He was Alexander.

Land O' The Free | 159. Tuesday, January 8 2008, 12:06

Romios you are wrong.

Alexander was Macedonian. He never considered himself Greek, he despised the Greeks. He was Macedonian. The Ancient Macedonians are extinct, so neither can the Slavs claim him. None of you can.

All you guys are so involved in your petty little fights. Can't you see the real enemy at your gates!?

alexander the greek | 160. Wednesday, January 16 2008, 22:02

the fact that ancient macedonian was not slav it is sure.
Slavs came 1000 years after.
Ancient macedonians were dorian tribes that were left in today's northern greece. In contrast the other dorian tribes moved to southern greece and enslaved the myceneans. They were dorians and this is FACT. Their greek names , their greek culture, greek gods, their attempt to be greeks even though not all greeks considered them greek. The reason why some greek didn't consider them greek is cultural. Macedonia was not advanced enough and isolated.

Alexander the Great wanted to present himself as greek:

"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury; ... (and) I have been appointed leader of the Greeks ..."alexander to the persians

He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: ''Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, save the Lacedaimonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia."

...
alexander accepted the title of greek king and spread the greek culture to the east. We have survived till today cause of this man.

Anyway after the roman occupation these people did hellenized ,so i cant understand the reason why some bulgarian slavs claim him.

alexander the greek | 161. Thursday, January 17 2008, 18:52

It is totally wrong to talk about the slavic populations of the Region Macedonia. They are christians, with culture close to greek BUT they came at 900AC- i mean to macedonia, with the invasion of Samuil. The byzantine historians make it clear that the populations of the 'Thessaloniki Theme' were 'roman' which means greek in medieval ages. In contrast the slavs of Samuil were new-comers to macedonia and they fighted the 'roman' population to settle. So the theories that the slavs mixed with ancient macedonians and here comes the 'macedonian slav' nation are wrong becasue the ancient macedonians had gone!- mixed with other greeks and here comes the 'roman-medieval' or byzantine nation! Samuil was clearly bulgarian and slav and because of his invasions and attacks so many slavs settled. So how can these slavs claim to be macedonians since they fighted the real macedonians: romans of 'Thessaloniki Theme'?
This is just a game of indentity. They are bulgarians and if they dont want to be bulgarians they at least must show respect to the history of the neighbouring nations.

Alexander was not just a butcher-this is the fyrom view. He was a guy that spread the greek culture to the east, making people speaking greek. If you ask a guy from fyrom what was Alexander's contribution he wont answer or say 'killing'. Well not only killing but culture.

alexander the greek | 162. Thursday, January 17 2008, 19:03

NO NATION IS PURE. That doesn't mean we cant have out own history. Many FYRmacedonians have the impression that they are unique slavs that were in balkans from ancient ages! They dont accept their similarities with the bulgarians- who are 'tatars' for them. Not all of cource. But the worst are some Fyrmacedonians who think they are not slavs! These are auto-rascist people who in order to persuade themselves that they are ancient macedonians they throw away their slavic identity. The 'macedonian' nation is something new, misirkov and other bulgarians introduced the name 'macedonian' geographically to describe the slavic populations of macedonia. Tito invented the nation. Tito officialized it. Most of the so called 'macedonians' accepted bulgarians as liberators during the WW2 and after Tito they were named 'macedonians'. The 'heavy propaganda' was 'deployed' after 1992, due to greece refusal to recognize the state as 'Macedonia'.
As for the slavic populations that were kicked from greece after 1913 -they were bulgarians absolutely.

Mister Bark | 163. Sunday, January 20 2008, 04:29

juste un message ppur savoir où je pourrais rrencontrer l'auteur de cze blog ;)

Land O' The Free | 164. Thursday, February 28 2008, 12:48

You are all so pathetic, so so so pathetic. If any surving race has a claim to Alexander, it is the Albanians, who through the Illyrians are linked to Olympia, his mother.

However, since they and their KLA terrorists sold their souls to Bin Laden, I don't see why we in the States are giving them so much support. Didn't we learn our lesson in Afghanistan?

I hope you all kill each other and allow the whole of the Balkans to become a holiday resort for the Germans and French... You don't deserve anything better.

Alonso | 165. Friday, July 18 2008, 17:15

We are the global reputable International company that
specializes in Sales, Supply and Distribution of brand
new notebooks, telecommunications,musical equipments
and Electronics Gadget of the Highest Quality still at
very affordable prices. The long-term relationship
with clients is the first priority we have been
concerned. We manage our business in the most honest
and trustworthy ways. We offer our clients with high
quality products in reasonable prices that make them
get a promising profit and valuable business. Besides,
we have dedicated staffs to provide the best services
for our clients.
DELIVERY ARRANGEMENT:
Delivery will be arranged within a specific 1 hour
time period immediately payment is confirmed , so you
won't have to spend all day waiting for your delivery.

Delivery Duration: From the time you order, you can
expect delivery within 48 hours at your door step
The delivery will be conducted in a professional
manner and every precaution will be taken to avoid any
damage to your home.

Courier Service: we Use Reliable shipping company
Fedex /DHL.

Please be sure the pathway to your new delivery is
clear, that we won't fail your terms of delivey .

contact us
E-mails.easystorestech@aol.com
E-mails.easystores.tech@yahoo.com
E-mail:easystores.tech@hotmail.com


APPLE IPHONES
==================================
Apple Iphone 3G :$350USD
Apple iphone 16gb :$300USD
Apple iphone 8gb :$240USD
Apple iphone 4gb :$210USD

SIDEKICK
==================================

SIDEKICK III for..$120
SIDEKICK LX For ..$140

Xbox 360 cost ----------$180usd
Nintedo Wii Console ----$150usd
60gb Sony PlayStation 3-$180usd
80gb Sony PlayStation 3-$200usd
LG KF750 Secret preview ...$290usd
O2 Cocoon review......$200usd


Nokia Phones
=======================================
Nokia N96 16gb.......$450USD
Nokia N93 ......$250USD
Nokia N95 ......$300USD
Nokia N95 8gb...$350USD
Nokia N76.......$240USD
Nokia N75 ......$250USD
Nokia N93i......$200USD
Nokia E51 360...$240USD
Nokia E90 ......$280USD
Nokia N72.......$175USD
NOKIA VERTU.....$250USD
Nokia N80 ......$190USD
Nokia N82.......$290USD
Nokia N90 ......$190USD
Nokia N91 ......$200USD
Nokia N92 ......$220USD

Nokia 8800 Sirocco Edition ...$250USD
============================================
HTC Touch Diamond ..$350USD
HTC X7500....$3o0USD
HTC S710.. ..$330USD
HTC P350 ....$300USD
HTC P3400....$250USD
HTC P4350 ...$200USD
HTC P3600.. .$210USD
HTC TYTN ....$290USD
HTC HyTn II..$250USD
HTC Touch Cruise.$300USD
======================================
Nokia 8800 Sapphire Arte......$300USD
Nokia 8600 luna New Series....$280USD
=========================================
BlackBerry Bold 9000.......$300
Blackberry 7290..$150
AT&T Blackberry7280.$180
Blackberry 16MB col.$220
Blackberry 8700c ...$250
Blackberry 7230 ....$220
Blackberry 7290.....$180
Qtek 9100...$300
Qtek 9000...$400
=======================================
iMate Ultimate 5150 @200usd
iMate SP Jam @170usd
iMate PDAL @ 200usd
iMate Jaq 4 @210usd
iMate Jaq 3 @200usd
iMate JAQ @ 180usd
iMate JAM @ 150usd
==================================
PRICE LIST OF LAPTOPS:
=================================
Acer Ferrari 3400LMi Notebook ................$500USD
Acer Ferrari 3200LMi - Mobile Athlon..........$650USD
Apple Powerbook G4 1.67ghz Drive Bluetooth
17"Screen............$650USD
Apple PowerBook G4 - PPC G4 1.5..$600USD
Apple Powerbook G4 1.5ghz .......$500USD
Apple iBook G4 - PPC G4 .........$500USD
Apple iBook Notebook 14.1".......$390USD
==============================
APPLE LAPTOP
====================================
Apple MacBook (MA700LL/A) Mac
Notebook....$500USD
Apple MacBook Pro (MA611LL/A)
Notebook....$600USD
Apple iBook G3 (M7698LL/A) Mac
Notebook....$600USD
Apple MacBook Pro (MA610LL/A)
Notebook....$600USD
Apple Macbook Pro (885909119400)
Notebook....$600USD
===============================
OQO model 01+ Ultra PC ....$400USD
OQO model 02 Ultra PC (pre-order) ....$420USD
OQO model 02 Ultra PC (pre-order) ....$410USD

(samsung)
================================
Brand new Samsung D600 $140
Brand new Samsung D500 $130
Brand new SamsungP860 $130
Brand new Samsung P850 $145
Brand new Samsung E730 $130
Brand new Samsung D550 **** $130
Brand new Samsung D510 **** $135
Brand new Samsung E850 **** $120
Brand new Samsung D710 **** $135

(Motorola)
Brand new Motorola A910 **** $150
Brand new Motorola A728 **** $140
Brand new Motorola A732 **** $135
Brand new Motorola Q **** $120
Brand new Motorola E895 **** $120
Brand new Motorola V3x **** $130
Brand new Motorola V8 **** $120
Brand new Motorola V6 **** $120
Brand new Motorola A1010 **** $100
Brand new Motorola E1060 **** $90
Brand new Motorola V1050 **** $90
Motorola Motorola a388c....... $150
=============================================
Sony Ericsson G502 review..$300USD
Sony Ericsson K810i Cyber-shot Digital Camera Phone
......$280USD
Sony Ericsson Z780..$170USD
Sony Ericcson T303 ..$200USD
Sony Ericcson XPERIA X1 .....$230USD
Sony Ericsson G900 ...$350USD
Sony Ericsson G700 ...$240USD
Sony Ericsson w350 ...$270USD
Sony Ericsson K630 ...$250USD
Sony Ericsson W760....$300USD
=================================================


DIGITAL CAMERA PRICE LIST
Acer cs-5530 digital camera=$250
Canon ixus 700 digital camera= $350
Canon ixus 750digital camera =$300
Canon ixus i zoom digital camera (jet black)=$700
Canon ixus i zoom digital camera (Sahara)=$460
Canon power shot s80 digital camera = $200
Casio exilim ex-s500 digital camera (orange, )= $200
Digital blue qx5 digital microscope= $330
Fuji film finepix f10 digital camera =$450
Nikon d2x digital camera (body only)=$310
Olympus fe-100 digital camera =$400


Merchandise Damaged In Delivery

For your protection, do not sign for merchandise until
you have inspected your product for damages. If the
product is damaged do not accept it. We will get you
another one within 24-48 hours. Be sure that the
driver has noted the damage in detail.

Contact : Email :
easystores.tech@hotmail.com/
E-mail:easystores.tech@yahoo.com
E-mail:easystores.tech@gmail.com
Thank you very much for your partronage.

Regards
Director of Sales

lukethegreek | 166. Thursday, October 23 2008, 09:33

As regards the modern Greek nation's continuity with ancient Greece, I would like to point out that it is unfair to say Greeks have nothing to do with ancient Greeks for the following reasons: (1) the "historical continuity" is driven by cultural traits (e.g. language, perception of history), not by blood or DNA (so, what is the American DNA)? (2) Greeks live in the same land where ancient Greece flourished and are constantly inspired by their "ancient ancestors" (culture-wise). (3) Not all nations are "melting pots" like Canada and the US; I believe that one should respect this fact!

AlexaeY30 | 167. Friday, February 12 2010, 10:37

I want to say that a reliable <a href="http://quality-papers.com">custom writing</a> service is a good assistant on the way of term paper thesis creating. Thus, people are able use it every time they would like to buy essay papers.

buy coursework online | 168. Thursday, October 21 2010, 08:23

Spend a lot of time researching? Stop doing it and buy coursework. You will be able to focus on other deals.

Julia | 169. Tuesday, November 2 2010, 17:04

If you need <a href="http://goodessay.org">custom essay service</a> there is a special offer for you

Athens frappebabel is proudly served by

• Dora
• Asimina Managlioti
• Angelina Bassi
• SimonR
• Dimi
• Ioannis Koutrakos
• konstantina
• FROGGY
• tintin
• Alekos
• chris
• lycanthrope
• luca amos
• jean-marc.laborie
• Sofia Belegrinou
• benakiba
• Elina
• Georgios
• ilialap

CbTags

• Education
• maritime
• AKP, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Democracy, Erdogan, Geopolitics, Media, politics, Turkey, Washington
• cinema
• protest
• painting
• University of Athens
• QS
• bologna process
• alloianoi
• financial crisis
• Germany
• Greece
• education system
• Berlin
• cafebabel Athens
• opening
• event
• Israeliens
• Palestinians
• Can you hear me Europe?
• London
• Abkhazia, Armenia, Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan Pipeline, Central Asia, Democracy, EU, FDI, Foreign Investment, Geopolitics, Georgia, Iraq, Israel, Russia, Syria, Turkey, Turkish Military, Washington
• Venice Biennale
• siemens
• research and innovation
• architecture
• Parthenon Marbles
• cuisine
• America
• doctors
• actors
• Marathon
• Battle of Marathon
• technology
• Persia
• Eric Schmidt
• Nazism
• genocide
• Social Darwinism
• oriental partnership
• kitsch
• statues
• Alexander the Great
• Kaizer
• violence
• book review
• India
• society
• foreign policy
• cambridge
• USA
• microsoft
• borders
• Athens
• Holocaust
• consumption society
• Innovation
• european commission
• global warming
• Israel
• books
• izmir
• Balkans, Serbia, croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albania, Macedonia, BRIC, EU enlargement
• Italy
• culture
• UK
• political corruption
• Baroso
• Reagan
• consensus
• European Popular Party
• European Socialist Party
• political system
• Ankara
• Nikola Gruevski
• corruption
• NATO
• nationalism
• best of cafebabel.com
• Pogrom
• tourism
• history
• Bulgaria
• Socialists
• EU elections
• Europe
• London
• awards
• death
• Elgin
• development
• The British Museum
• Culture
• world heritage
• return
• Acropolis
• youth
• Conservatives
• strasbourg
• Turkey
• cafebabel.com
• Barack Obama
• EUdebate2009
• humanity
• China
• Margaret Thatcher
• FYROM
• CAFEBABEL ISTANBUL
• ISTANBUL
• creating partnerships
• crime
• reform
• riots
• Macedonia
• European culture
• Cyprus
• Constantinople
• social networks
• Lech Kaczynski
• political parties
• politicians
• Hollywood
• Tom Cruise
• Education
• climate change
• students
• Athens
• Recep Tayyip Erdogan
• Google
• Politics
• college
• EU Commission President
• harvard university
• museum
• Istanbul
• babel reporter
• Society
• postgraduate
• venice

All tags

• Athens
• Barcelona
• Berlin
• Brussels
• Bucharest
• Budapest
• Bordeaux
• Clermont Ferrand
• Istanbul
• Köln
• Lecce
• Lisbon
• London
• Luxembourg
• Lyon
• Madrid
• Minsk
• Murcia
• Paris
• Roma
• Sevilla
• Sofia
• Stockholm
• Strasbourg
• Tallinn
• Tbilisi
• Torino
• Valencia
• Vilnius
• Warsaw
• Wien

Search engine

• Home -
• Archives