Fighting for a historical relic..the modern Macedonian Question
By Giorgos on Monday, November 26 2007, 16:03 - The ''Greek'' Files - Permalink
When reffering to Macedonia is very difficult to define of what are you talking about : is Macedonia a georgaphical term, is it a nation and why for eons all these Balkan people fight for this piece of land? Lets split the timeline in three periods..The first one is the ancient era, where Macedonia means an indipendent state ruled by Phillip II and after him Alexander the Great. This state consider of itself to be a part of the greek world. Macedonia shares the same language,culture, religion and joins every pan-hellenic event as for example the Olympic Games. This state under the rule of Alexander united almost all the greek city states and declared war to the Persian Empire. The second period begins from the Roman times and continues to the Byzantine Empire (or Eastern Roman Empire) and her succesor in the area the Ottoman Empire. All this time which is almost 19 centuries Macedonia is called the geographical region of the ancient kingdom which now was a province of all these empires. After Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia became indipendent they all wanted to gain the region of Macedonia because of her strategical and economical importance and because they all had people of the same nation who inhabited Macedonia. During the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 the united Balkan allies captured Macedonia and with the Bucharest Treaty of 1913 the Ottoman Empire was forced to cede the region to the allies. Greece and Serbia controlled almost the 95 % of the former ottoman region but Greece had the biggest part which also included the capital of the region Thessalonica. The decades following the creation of Yugoslavia under the king Alexander III Karageorgevitc the region of Serbian Macedonia was named Vardaska which means the land of the Vardar river. After Tito came to power and made Yugoslavia a federal stated he changed the name and made it Peoples republic of Macedonia while he cultivated a Macedonian national identity. After the collapse of Yugoslavia the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia declared it's independance and changed her name into Macedonia. This goes to the third period...Macedonia tried to convince the globe that they were the same nation as ancient Macedonia and of course they claimed that Alexander was also a Macedonian. Following that they used the royal emblem of Alexander as their flag and in their school books they claimed that Macedonia was under Greek and Bulgarian occupation. After Greece outrageously rejected all these, there was a negotiation process where F.Y.R.O.M. accepted to join the UN under the name former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and was forced to changed her flag and every territorial claim over the Greek region of Macedonia. All this history is needed to understand why Greeks have emotional reasons of not accepting Macedonia as the name of this country. If we take in mind that much of the greek nationalism is based on Alexander's Macedonia and that nowadays Greece owes almost the 90% of the ancient Macedonia and a huge part of the Ottoman Macedonia then we can understand the sensitivity of the issue. However, the Greeks dont have the exclusivity to the term which is geographical and is vital for FYROM's stability in the interior.Of course this doesn't mean that FYROM or any other country have the right to exclusively use the name of a region - and especially Macedonia which is important for all Balkan people. Personally, I would like in the name of the neighbouring country to be defined that this country is not the whole of Macedonia -which is after all a georgaphical term- but a part of it f.e. Nothern Macedonia, or Slavian Macedonia et.c. Furthermore FYROM must stop fabricating historical facts over ancient Macedonia. In conclusion, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs of FYROM when interviewed said : Of course we have no relation with Ancient Macedonia, but when in Balkans in order to proof a different national existance you have to present history we were forced by you (the Greeks) to fabricate our history.....
Comments
As a student of ancient history, modern politics & with Balkan Roma ancestry, I commend you for disassociating the Macedonians from the regions historic past.
However, to be taken seriously, one must also assume that no one in the Balkans (no, not even the Greeks) can be connected to the regions past. After all, the same slaughters & migrations occured in Greece, as well as the rest of the Balkans. The difference is that Greece developed the falacy of an ancient connection a few decades prior with third party help inthe nation building process.
Other than the usual Greek arrogance (& ignorance) displayed in this article, the other main point of dissention is your attempts to associate the creation of the modern Macedonian identity with Tito. It seems you have not been objective enough to research the vast resources highlighting the development of a modern Macedonian nation long before Tito.
Or perhaps some mention could have been made to write of Greece's treatment of minorities, which Macedonians are included (as well as my own mistreatment as Roma).
A distainful article full of political rhetoric.
Mr. Daniel,
Since you are a student of history, go to Google News and type "Greece." Use the time-line view and use the option to include dates prior to 1900. You will see it was the Greeks who spilled their blood going to war with Turkey to free Macedonia.
The Fyromese and certain Bulgarian segments claim a separate Macedonian ethnicity. . .they must have been in hiding for the last 2,000 years.
Macedonia is geographic region but ancient Macedonia Hellenized. Why is that difficult for the Salv and Muslim Macedonians to accept such a straight forward reality?
I have to agree with Daniel.
Young Greeks, like myself, are very vulnerable to populist brainwashing, therefore, I will give Giorgos and Ike the benefit of years of populist indoctrination by PASOK, ND and the Orthodox Churches of Greece and the Diaspora before I finally pass judgement.
The Macedonian Republic, the one Greece and the UN refer to as the FYROM, did not try to pass itself off as the heir to ancient Macedon, not in 1903, not in 1913, not in 1944, not in 1991.
The Republic, in response to Greece's nationalist argument of "Hellenicity" or exclusivity of the Macedonian name, heritage and geography, post-1991 decided to counter-attack such nationalism using similar arguments, the ancient flag and the renaming of the Skopje Airport being part of the same policy.
The Macedonians are very much aware of their Old Slavic, Bulgarian and Albanian heritage, and they are proud of it. Some are very much connected with Greece and Greeks, and they are proud of such relationship.
What the modern Greeks need to understand is that, not only their ancestors are not even remotely connected with ancient peoples, but that their country and nation is the most archaeolpeptic and cryptofascist hyper-orthodox fundamentalist neo-nazi bunch of Christodoulian fanatics in Europe.
If we are as Greeks as we think we are, that is, European, modern, pacifist, diplomatic, then we have no choice but to accept that these "Skopians" are known to the world as Macedonians for as long as the Greeks are known as Greeks, that is, since the 19th century AD, not ...BC.
Ego Romios gennithika Romios the na pethano. Please, all Chrysi Avgi and L.A.O.S. ellinarades go make me a frappe, I am thirsty.
Metrio me oligon gala, na sai kala Stavro, ta resta dika sou.
I have to disagree with Daniel and Daskalos since FYROM has no connection to the ancient macedonians, why do you allow them to use the hellenic name of macedonia?.
FYROM are a slavic tribe that have arrived in europe way after the death of christ. Allow the FYROM the use of the name, can claim the heritage of Greece and their rights of macedonia name. This gives the world a wrong message that any country can wrongly claim anything.
I am not of greek origin but can tell you that anyone that has studied or read any books about ancient macedonia, you would know that history does tell us the ancient Macedonia are of Greek origin. FYROM must accept that, and find an acceptable solution to their country name with Greece and end this stupid propaganda.
that's a good one! danny boy!
now i know why Romas remain illetarate and live in the dark ages. throughout the world! with 'students' like yourself, they will most likely remain so.
So, 'student of history', you think that nobody around here can be connected to the region's paet!
How about the greek language? did the greeks just learned it recently from your kind?? lol
How about the greek civilization that survived through the byzantine times right down to rainaisance and the modern times. Who did that danny? the... romas or the slavs? do you believe 'history student' that Pechenegs, skythes, slavs, Turks AND romas would be civilized if it was not for Byzanitne Greeks? It was the Greeks who civilized all these barbarians, they let them stay in the balkans, they used them whenever they needed them and they punished them when they had to. Maybe they ought to do that again.
Dr Selim Stanitsas
and one more thing, danny
Alexander the Great read the Iliad 'ek tou narthikos' (i hope you know what that means, 'student of history'), you just read it from any book you choose. Then you will know what is Macedonia and who has the right to call himself macedonian loool
one last thing
i can understand danny how you feel about minorities and their rights. After all you live in Canada!! Come to Greece an we'll give you a free education for you and your family. or better still, go back to India. There you will know how it is
First of all, I never told that Greece has the exclusivity over the term ''Macedonia''. Had you read tha entry you would see that I propose a name which will include the name ''Macedonia'' because I can recognise to it a geographical term. I dont belong to any right or fasicst organization like L.A.O.S or Chrisi Avgi and If you don't mind please stop any of personal judgments or attacks.
The fact the FYROM begun to fabricate territorial demands over Greece and Bulgaria is a fact and I am very happy that they renounced their claims. I totally accept the term Macedonia as a geographical term which will be part of the name of the neighbouring country but I cant accept that a country demands the historical term. And this not only happens with Alexander but with Bulgarian history too where they claim that medieval king Samuel was Macedonian. In that way every inhabitant of Ancient or Ottoman Macedonia is ''Macedonian''.
Furthermore, I never reffered to any possible connection of modern Greeks to the Ancient Greece. From the view of political science I can see that Alexander is in the core of greek nationalism (of course the time it was made nationalism hadn't the meaning it has today). And I also agree with Danniel that the Greek state didn't treat well Slavomacedonians and Romas but I cant find a Balkan nation which treated well any minority at this time. Dear Daniel if you have anything which reffers to Macedonian nation before Tito please send me.
And something more..when you judge somebody Daniel be sure you had made a comperative politics and history to see what the others have done at the same time. Thats the way to fully understand history. You can't judge the past with your viewpoint of today.
How can Greece fall under all of these historic names and be all Greek eg.. Macedonia, Sparta and Thaice.
Thats why most of the History in the Balkan coutries is all mixed up cos the Greeks have taken some of that history from other regions and made it their's, like Macedonian history. When you look at India were it's one of the counries that Alexander the Great went throu, their history writes that Alexandre the Great was Macedonian not Greek. The Greek nation was created in 1832 before that it was known as Hellas, so you tell me.
Greece is the term foreigners use to describe what in Greek is called ''Hellas''. We call Hellas our country not Greece. I cant understand why it is so difficult for some to understand that in classical times they were city states which were united under the reign of Alexander (even though they didn't like it that much ;) ). As a Pomeranian, a Bavarian, a Silesian all consider themselves as Germans even though they were different states with cultural differences.
Τhe Macedonian royal house was called "Argeads" or "Temenidae". According to the tradition, the founder of the royal house Perdiccas - even if the name of the founder differs in reference with the ancient source used - along with his brothers, the "Temenidae" came to the place called Macedonia from the Greek city of Argos. These Temenidae were descendants of Heracles, through Temenus, thus they were called also 'Heracleids'.
Since the time of Alexander I, who was better known as the "Philhellene", Macedonian kings participated in Olympic games, which as we all know only Greeks could take part. The Argive origin of the Macedonian royal house was well-attested and widely believed both from Macedonians, as well as the rest of Greeks. Rifles like the political intricasies of Demosthenes against Philip is the tenuous exception to the general rule.Philip II, father of Alexander, was son of the Macedonian king Amyntas III and Eurydice, a Lyncestian princess. Lyncestians were incorporated earlier to Molossians, hence we could find them in ancient sources (1) as 'Molossian Ethne' or as Lyncestian Macedonians. A strong Illyrian influence can be recognised in the nearby Lyncestian kingdom but their royal house was widely believed in the ancient world to be descedants of the Greek Bacchiades coming from Corinth. Eurydice was daughter of a Lyncestian princess, daughter of Arrabaios, king of Lyngos and Sirras - a person shrouded in great darkness - since his ethnicity is obscure. There are conflicting theories which identify him either as Illyrian or as a native Lyncestian.(2) We can only conclude, Philip's greek ancestry is proved beyond doubt by the traditions of the greek royal houses both in Macedon and Lyngos.Now we will analyze the lineage coming from the mother of Alexander, the Molossian Olympias. Her original name as a child was called Polyxena and then, at marriage, Myrtale; later in life she was also known as Olympias and Stratonice.(3) Τhe name Olympias was given to her, according to the tradition, after her husband Philip won in Olympic games.
The members of Molossian royal house , the so-called 'Aeacidae' thought of themselves as descendants of Acchiles' son, Neoptolemus and Andromache. They both took refuge in the area in the aftermath of Troy's fall. Their son was Molossus, the founder of Molossians. Olympias herself, was daughter of Neoptolemus, king of Epirus and most likely of an Epirotan woman, Anasatia. (4) In the early 6th century, the tyrant of Sicyon Cleisthenes wished to find a suitable husband for his daughter Agariste. He invited "the best of the Greeks" in order to decide which one would marry his daughter. Among the Greek contestants was the Molossian king Alkon. Conclusion of the above is that the members of the Molossian royal house considered themselves as Greeks and were viewed as such by the rest of Greeks.
[1] Hecataeus
[2] Kapetanopoulos 'Sirras - Eurydice'
[3] Waldemar Heckel "Who's Who In The Age Of Alexander The Great: Prosopography Of Alexander's Empire" p. 181
[4] Favorinus ap. Jul Val 1.7 (frg. 49)
The fact that Mr. Selim (carrying the name of an Ottoman Sultan?) has so elequently suggested that I go back to India, my roots are in the Balkans like yours (although, it seems that your Greekness has been imposed on yours as well Selim, masculine, Turkish form of the arab Salim). Who cares of Alexander? Your blood, along with theirs are mongrel comparedto his after 2 millenia under foreign rule? In Greece, this moron can obtain a doctorate?
Giorgios, since the only real issue I had with the article pertaining to Macedonians is your misconception of Tito 'creating' the Macedonians of today. Here is what you asked for dated 1925: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...
However, again, I commended you for disassociating them from the likes of Alexander. My issue with your article is that it carries an aura of righteousness based on some concocted Hellenic megalomania that you are ancient & they are not (the fact is modern Hellenism was created by third parties as a way of uniting a plethora of nationalities under one banner to combat Ottoman Turkey).
But none the less, the Greek persistance today of a compound name to distinguish a geographic region is relatively new. Perhaps some of the xenophobic & completely irrational reactions on the part of the Greeks & their government may have been mentioned as well? After all, this 'willingness to compromise' is a relatively new phenomena in this debate.....is it not?
AND one last free lesson of history. This one addressed to george (whatever) looool
george, my boy, apparently your knowledge of history is as bad as your geography loool
Sparta is a town in Peloponese (like, let's say Bobmbay in India), Macedonia is a province in Greece (like Udra Prandesh) and Hellas or Greece is the same country. Greeks call themeselves Hellenes and their country is Hellas.
And, Gerorge my boy, peoples with long and important historical backrounds, like the Greeks, assimilate, accumulate and intergrate several reigional and intraregional names.
And, by the way, the name Greek was given to Hellenes by the Latins (Petrarch was the first one to use it) after some mytical tribe that supposetly lived in Ipirus.
So, george, now you know better than asking these stupid questions.
Eygept, Italy and Turky also Know in the era of Alexander the Great as Egypseans, Romans and the Ottomens. All 3 nations in the present have recognised the Macedonian nation and all 3 nations have deep history with the Macedonian people back in the Alexander's era. So who do i belive, not you Giorgos you make your own history the way it suit you.
Oh, george, my boy, i forgot to tell you about Alexander the Great:
He was greek, spoke greek, he waas educated by Aristotle and lived in a province of Greece called Macedonia.
He was to Athenians, what Californians are to New Yorkers: despeakable, arrogant, neuvelle riche, but... greek all the same
How stupid and ignorant can you be, george!!
Have you been to elementary school yet?
Dr Selim Stanitsas
Oh geirge...
so much laughing is a bit too much loooool
it's "Egypt", and "Turkey"
and, as far as i know, there is no such a thing as "Ottoman state"
BUT, george, in case you are Turkish, which i think you are, take a look at Sultan Mehmet's firman from 1458, five years after the taking of Instabul: There he concedes the christian inhabitants vilaetie of Macedonia under the power of Patriarch Gennadios Scholarios.
I guess El Fetih Mehmet new his history better than you george lllllooooollll
Dr, Selim Stanitsas
PS. No more free lessons for you george, from now on you'll have to pay
Please can we stop personal attacks? What we do is debating on the issue with proofs! Daniel, I dont have any megalomania that my people are more ancient or more important than others. Thanks for the criticism but my thesis on the issue remains the same not because I am greek but because it doesn't make any sence that a small country claims the history of a people who lived eons before them and are not related to them and now they want to take also tha name of a geographical area...I would do the same in any other case and i would write the same for any other people!
All i can say is history is about to repeat its self, over 120 country's have recognized Macedonia and all of these country's have their own verson of history in their own arcives.
You can say that i'm uneducated but can you tell these 120 countries that theis verson of world history is lies. Time to wake up and see the real truth you can do this yourself by looking in arcives outside greece.
My dear George, the fact that 120 countries recognized ''Macedonia'' doesn't mean that they recognized that they are descedants of the Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. Politics have nothing to do with the study of history and morality. Let me ask you something : What do you thing about Aristotle? Of what nationality is he to you?
giorgos,
we don't practice "personal attacks" against anybody !!
but I AM FIGHTING against ignorance and stupidity. Two elements that beat malignance.
As for you giorgos, you claim to be greek, but obviously you are as ignorant as many in your country:
The modern Greek state - which was created to satisfy the greed of the Big Powers in their effort to controll the remains of the great Ottoman Empire - DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT, include but a small percentage of Greeks in the area or in the world. They are at least thirty million greeks living in Asia minor and the Balkans. They are of Greek origin, most of them speak greek as an ethinc language. Another gigty million people of greek origin live around the world, from Australia to Canada and from "Megali Ellada" to Vaktriani (you know where that is, giorgos, don't you? If not ask somebody).
So giorgos stop insulting yours and our intelligence by saying that yours is 'a small country'. It is small state but with a huge historical backround and a hell-of-lot of responsibilities.
Dr. Selim Stanitsas
to the remark that 120 countries have recognized FYROM as "Macedonia"
This is like saying: Five trillion flies eat shit, there must be something good in it, so let's eat it too
All i can say is my Great grandfather came from the region of Macedonia the greek part of Macedonia. In 1913 he was told to change his sirname and to speak greek from that moment on. My grandfather 2 days later got kicked out of Macedonia by the Greek army and was told not to ever came back or all of his brothers will be killed ( his 2 brothers accepted the terms of the Greek army). My Grandfather made a new home in Canada and till today the Greek Government does not let him return to see his 1 brother left.
My grandfather is 98 years old. He was 6 at the time and came to Canada with his dad and his 2 brothers were left with his mom, his mom was greek of origin.
It's got lot to do with politics.
Did I say that Greece is a small country? Of course I dont ignore all these millions abroad and their importance for the Greek State..Greece is a cultural superpower even though many dont like it. Of course the area of the Greek State is a result of treaties formed by the superpowers and of course this don't include many greeks. I don't think we disagree in anything.
George, I said politics has nothing to do with the STUDY of history not the CREATION of history. Politics create history but when you mess politics when you study history is a different thing. And I want an answer for Aristotle. You regard him as a Greek or not?
Why do most Greeks think that they are pure breed, some even say that their upto 98% greek?
What you are telling me is different from what I ask. If they ask you when you walk if you know the birthplace of Aristotle what would you say?
Macedonian
yes, george, this is a tragic story.
I realize your point here.
Those were bad times and bad people usually prevail when things are bad.
But, as i said, the greek state is not in the least the only representative of Greeks around the world.
And since you were born in Canada and your grandfather is there for so long, apparently you are all Canadian citizens, you don't need anybody's permission to come to Greece and visit whoever you want to.
yes, george, this is a tragic story.
I realize your point here.
Those were bad times and bad people usually prevail when things are bad.
But, as i said, the greek state is not in the least the only representative of Greeks around the world.
And since you were born in Canada and your grandfather is there for so long, apparently you are all Canadian citizens, you don't need anybody's permission to come to Greece and visit whoever you want to.
Doctor good to see you again? let me ask you one thing, Are you 95%-100% greek?
All people in the Balkans have tragic stories. My mother originates from Smyrna (Izmir, Turkey) and they were refugees in 1922 when the city was burnt from the Turks. My great grandfother was killed there from Turks. This doesn't work. We cant think of the past all time when living in the present. I went in Turkey i found the house of my family but I cant accuse all the time the Turks. But when they say that the Greeks burnt Izmir how can I agree. Some things are matter of justice. And as for Aristotle he was Greek as Alexander was Greek. Go ask any professor in any university and you will get the some answer. This has nothing to do with how pure a nation is. This has to do with historical justice.
ha ha
i am not Greek
i just study greek history, all my measerable life
one last thing:
Aristotle was born in Stageira, a small town in Chalkidiki, which was a colony of Andros (Andreuon)
The family of Aristotle was from Andros
To Doc. you are a Greek with a Greek sirname.
george, i am not greek. I am an Arab temporarily in Greece. AND, besides, i am a Muslim. How can a Muslim be greek ??
lol
And just between us, George, if you were in Canada you would spell "surname" correctly
looool
Exaple: The romans were very powerful at one stage of history, the conqured parts of the world so did the egypians and so and so..... They all had one name romans were the romans.......But when it cames to Alexander some books say he was a Macedonian warrior, some books say he was a Greek warrior, And some book say he was a Macedonian warrior with Greek army, some books say he was a Greek warrior with Macedonian legons and so and so.........................................................................................................................................................................Alexander was a True Macedonian warrior with legons of Macedonians with some Greek army. In the end it was the Greek army that poisioned him and 2500 years later you claim him as Greek.
Even in Hollywood when they made the film about Alexander it was a flop becouse it was all lies in the film
ok george,
let me put it this way:
I am an Arab, my father was from Syria, my mother from Lebanon. I've lived and taught in the United States, in Egypt, in Greece.
I speak perfect Greek. I know the history of Greece (better than most greeks, i'm afraid lol) and usually people think i am Greek. I actually fooled you, and you thought i am Greek!!
Does all that make me greek? it sure does. Because as Isocrates said two thousand three hundred years ago (he was an Thenian orator - politician - around 300 BC, at the time when Alexander died): Ellines eisin ouxi monon oi Ellines to genos, alla oi tis ymeteras paidias metexontes, which translates to : Greeks are not only those born in Greece, but all those whoo share greek culture.
So, george, we are all greeks. In one way or another.
An by the way, the issue whether Alexander was greek or not, is nothing new: In ancient times, the Athenians debated over exactly the same issue. loool
AND finally, the hollywood film was a flop, not because it insinuated that Alexander was greek, but because it presented history in a distorted way.
The whole history about alexander is distorted becouse the greek made it that way.
your logic is biased and your arguments are not sufficient, George.
Brush up your history and you will find out why.
And mind you: i'm not saying that all contemporary Macedonians are greeks, nor that the whole geograpical area of Macedonia is or should be greek. I'm just saying what history compells us to say: Alexander and the macedonians were greek and the name Macedonia is a grrek - not a slavic - name.
That much, even the government of Fyrom has accepted.
Good night and
all good to you
What a completely biased and pathetic article. It should be removed immediately.
If anyone's history is in doubt, it is the "greek" history and ethnicity.
"greece" has nothing to do with the ancients. They are ethnic Turks, Albanians and other assortments.
Macedonia has more of a right to ancient Macedonians and the Macedonia name than "greece". They can only claim the Sultan as their brother.
The problem with these debates is that emotion always gets in the way!
When the Slavs entered parts of Europe in the 6th century AD they merged with the ancient Macedonians, who, although they had many similarities to the Ancient Greeks, did consider, and were considered, a seperate people with their own customs and dialect (hence why so many Greeks fought on the Persians side against Alexander).
Over the centuries the bloodlines were mixed and a national identity emerged in that region that was Macedonian. The language was predominantly Slavic and the religion Orthodox. It was this Macedonian identity that saw the formation of the world's first terrorist group, - IMRO, who fought for an independent Macedonia in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
The problem now is that there is a large minority of Macedonian people in Northern Greece who are discriminated against by the Greek government, - as they fear that they will try and link up Northern Greece with Macedonia the ex-Yougoslav republic.
This is the most serious issue and should be addressed first! What the Greek government is doing has been condemened internationally. International Human Rights groups, Amnesty International, etc (who are all neutral, independent organisations) have all issued reports stating that the Macedonians in Northern Greece cannot speak their language, suffer beatings, must change their names etc. If the Greek government is right then every other world body is wrong... hmmm
It's time the Greeks treated their minorities correctly. The Greeks are the first to jump up and down about the treatment of their population in 'Northern Epirus' - Albania.
The Macedonians now are not the same as the Ancient Macedonians, but neither are the Greeks. However, Macedonians exist and have done so for hundreds of years and the Greeks must not deny their existence - a severe breach of human rights. I encourage Greek people to question their government and look at the evidence from neutral non-Greek and non-Macedonian organisations. Read books about the Macedonian history from foreign authors etc...
It is sad to see how so many people get swept up in nationalism that they allow themselves to be brainwashed by their government's propoganda. That is why you must look outside in order to gain critical perspective...
I would like to post one comment and start by saying I'm a fan of ancient Greece and all the great contributions to this world.
I think what happened to Macedonia was a nothing short of guilt by assossiation. After the breakup of the Ottaman empire, the world stage was only concerned about carving up the pieces of the pie so to speak. It was in the best interest of the British to secure the mediteranean sea trade and "Not" give the Russians the upper hand. By creating a large Greek state and incorperating the southern part of geographic Macedonia (which is the richest in fertile land) in turn layed the foundation for a well functioning state. Now the modern Greek nation has become Frankensteins monster. Identical to the Albanians, and Serbians. What is it with nationalism in the balkans. They cant seem to get out of the Feudal age. I thought the Greeks would be leading by example by it seem they are nothing short of the same.
Here, more than any other place in the world, learn from your past, and move the balkans foward! Those Macedonians have suffer plenty and don't deserve whats happening to them.
Appian's History of Rome: The Macedonian Wars ,Appian of Alexandria (c.95-c.165)
Macedonians never was a Greek and Alexandar the Great was Macedonian not Greek.
SLAVES or SLAVIC peoples are Macedonian colony in Russia established due Roman/Macedonian Wars around 150-200 c and around 600 c -700 c they back to Balkans
Slavic peoples are ancient Macedonians.
If the Modern Greece recognize Macedonians in Greece,Republic Macedonia can not keep this name.But if Greece do not recognize Macedonian in Greece ,Republic Macedonia is reality for us like Greeks.
right, you are John loool
it is pathetic to say that modern greeks have nothing to do with the ancients. They just speak their language, practice their culture and even have their DNA.
And that is all out of the blue looooool
As for the Turks, you are right again. Most of the Turks are ethnic Greeks anyway.
Yep, i understand the menace of some "civilized" barbarians like yourself, against a people who carry such a long and glorious past. I even understand your... history. What i am amazed at is your remark that 'this article should be removed' etc.
Or maybe you are right again: it is a waste of time to try to talk to Pechenegs. The byzantines had found that out, a thousand years ago. looooool
As for you Stefan, i would suggest you do exactly what you urge other peple to do: read some outside literature, outside your distorted ethinic-based, ex-communistic, propaganda, that is.
And please, enlighten me: where is all this condemnation of Greece by the international organizations? i haven't seen any of that recently. Nor have i seen anything vaguely suggesting of 'a large "macedonian" minority in Northern Greece'. Stefan, this is wishful thinking,
Nor do i see any historic proof for your claims about 'the macedonian melting pot'.
But again, the slavs need another thousand years to mature and the Byzantines did not finish the job. As i said, maybe modern greeks should undertake the task.
One last remark to John's about the Sultans. You are absolutely right on that John. The Slavs are definetely entitled to claim the Sultans as their brothers: The first - and best - fighters of Sultan Mehmet's army were Slavs and they were the first to enter Constantinople after the Siege. And the young men in the jeni ceri army were recruited - mostly with their own will - from the Slavs in the Balkans.
And reffering to Greece in quotation marks, reminds me of the Germans and "DDR". Apparently this is where get your ideas looool.
That's a fine way to co-exist and bring te region forward in the future.
To Hank
Even if Macedonia claims Ancient Greek Heritage, is not Greece claiming Ancient Greek heritage?
The modern Greek population, like you and me is a genetic admixture of Greeks, Old Slavs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Armenians, Jews, Roma, Vlachs and Romans.
The modern Macedonian population make-up is identical to the Greek.
What differs is the type of indoctrination. Jozip Broz Tito, Gotse Delchev and Kirste Misirkov v Ioannis Metaxas, Kotsos Vasilias, Papadopoulos kai Archiepiskopos Serafim. Katalaves filarako?
To Selim
Since when one's profession equals acquiring nationality and citizenship? You've split your molukhia, Selim - too much garlic and only a hint of kusbarah. Tsk tsk tsk.
To Giorgos
What gives the right to Mr Selim to claim Ancient Greek ancestry? His right of self-determination. Similarly, our multicultural Eastern Roman ancestors (Romioi) became "Greek" or "Hellenes" because they were dazzled by the history of the extinct ancient Greeks, encouraged by the Orthodox Patriarchate of Istanbul and the Fanariote Diaspora.
Ore katakaimeni ROUMELI ti sou'melle na patheis...
The Macedonians are known as Macedonians because...go read "Vios kai Politeia tou Alexi Zorba" and find out for yourself. And do not forget... "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development".
The above principle (see ICCPR or the UN Charter) is the cornerstone of our Western Civilisation and Democracy.
When this right is being denied, then, there can be no explanation for such denial other than fascism. Not even...Greece has the right to deny anyone's right of self-determination, unless it thinks that being Greece means that our country is above the laws of the International Community.
To Stefan
When will you understand that the ancient Macedonian or the Hellenic heritage is WORLD heritage, rather than modern Macedonian or Greek?
Who told you that your Great Great Grandfather Stefan Dusan or indeed Boris the Second had intercourse with anyone other than Greek-speaking Orthodox Romans? The Macedonians were extinct by the time the Old Slavs arrived in the South Balkan peninsula.
Us Greeks recognise your right to call yourselves Macedonians - we know, however that you are not even remotely connected to any Philips or Alexanders, but rather to Misirkov, Delchev, the Gemidziji, the IMRO and Commintern.
Don't waste your time deluding yourself with Risto Stefov's and Aleksandar Donski's lies.
I suggest that you read Ljupco Georgievski's book "Facing the truth", available in Macedonian and Bulgarian Cyrillic.
one LAST word to Danny
If making smart-ass remarks about my..."blood" makes you feel better, go right ahead. I will not follow you. Maybe your therapist should.
And my name, don't let that bother you. You can call me anything you like, even moron looool. Just keep in mind that my doctorate was obtained - long time ago, i'm afraid - in the US, from a most reputable institution of highest learning.
Just one remark: I never said anything about 'pure blood' or any such nonsense. And yes, ethnicity is not a matter of genes, but of memes.
But i still feel i should apologise to Romas for my remark about going back to India. it was not meant literally, of course
To Daskalos
"Daskale pou didaskes kai nomo den tirouses"
It is not my profession that gives me the right to proclaim myself as Greek, but my "right of self determination".
As for citizenship, i don't need it. "I don't fear anything, I don't expect aything, I am free" (you know who said that, dont't you?)
Otherwise, i agree with you totally
Oh, about garlig. It's good. You should try it sometimes. Olo makaronia kai patates, souvlakia kai gournopoulo it's bad for your health
Hi everyone,
I was reading most of this comments and I can only say that the people that are declaring as Greeks are only trying to defend the theories and propagandas as they have been trying to do so for 100's of years.
They are desperate to make the world to believe that there are no Macedonians and that there is no Macedonia as they where trying to do with Alexander De Great. As they could't do that to him they were thrying to make him a Greek.
As a result of their fascism, the Macedonians started declaring as Macedonians everywhere in the world and in the "Greek" "Macedonia". But unfortunately they are still not recognised as a nationality in Greece and cannot form a political party.
They cannot bare the fact that the Macedonians are now recognised as Macedonians in the world, and even have their own country, which they see it as a threat! - Mad!
They just need to remember that they cannot destroy a nation. That was never done by force in the history, and can never be done in future.
The Macedonians were a nation and had a country even when the "Greeks" were small cities and fighting between each other.
You cannot ignore a nation!
Salam Selim
I know that your right of self-determination prevails over your profession and academic standing. I accept your right to identify as Greek.
I like garlic very much. And spices.
Kazantzakis paid the price for being too honest. I am not as honest as Kazantzakis.
To Zistko
Oh dear !!
here we go again
reading the postings is just not enough Zistko loool
you got to be able to understand them too.
Nobody is denying you the right to exist as Macedonians, but Macedonia is a wider region, much wider than your pitiful little "nation". The quetion here is whether you can keep on claiming sole pocession and we don't think you can,
And speaking of minorities, how do the Albanians and the Bulgarians in FYROM feel about "Macedonia"?
And a free piece of advise to you: don't talk about Alexander. Follow the example of your political leaders. The more you talk about him the less credible you become. Or I should I say the more rediculous you sound.
I have heared many things about this issue but the most funny was that : ''If Alexander was Greek he wouldn't need Aristotle''? Aristotle was from Mars? I cant understand why to these ''progressive'' people Aristotle is Greek and Alexander who is from the same kingdom is Macedonian? The other funny thing was that ''The greek army poisoned Alexander- so he is Macedonian not Greek''...according to this all the Athenians who forced Socrates to drink the conium or who killed their generals including the son of Pericles are not Greek ! lol
And of course according to the right of self determination Mauritania for example can call herself France because it was colonized from the French and right in the school books that Alsace or Cote d' Azur are parts of Mauritania. And stop this ridiculous thing over DNA..I never claimed that Greeks are of pure blood-no nation is of pure blood. What I say is clear and indipendent of history. FYROM cannot monopolize a name of a whole region, cannot claim land belonging to other neighbouring countries and make propaganda in the school books about ''parts of Macedonia that are occupied'' and no matter the historical connection, a people who appeared the 9th century AD cannot claim the symbols and the history of a kingdom that existed ceturies before they appeared. And pardon me you are not fascist when you claim that!
Giorgo
NO COUNTRY in the WORLD has ever tried to name itself after another country.
That includes the Republic of Macedonia. ROM have NEVER attempted to name their state after anyone's country.
For the avoidance of doubt, our country is known as Greece, Hellas, Hellenic Republic, Yunanistan, Xi La, but NOT as Macedonia.
Self-determination has nothing to do with regional administrative identification.
A quick search in...Wikipedia will confirm to you that Britain is a state, and Brittany in France is a region.
Ireland is an independent Republic that shares its space with Britain.
Luxembourg is a region whose territory is shared by Belgium, France and Germany.
There is simply no excuse for Greeks to continue being nazis either in the male (Samaras) female (Bakogianni) or gay (Karamanlis) form.
If the Macedonians suffer from historical amnesia and they think that instead of being a multi-ethnic state whose population is influenced historically by Bulgaria and Serbia, they are the descendants of Aleksandar Makedonski Veliki then, let it be.
Stous trelous leme panta NAI.
If they think that they can attract tourists into their country by posing as the part of Macedonia that gave birth to Alexander, then they will damage their reputation and ultimately their businesses will go bust.
Their con campaigns will function as free advertising for the Northern Greek provinces of Macedonia (West, Central and East).
If they think that they are justified in attacking Greece in order to fulfill their irridentist dreams of capturing Greek Macedonia, then we shall chop their bollocks off and give them to the Albanians as a gift. I don't think that they have the bollocks to attack anyone, let alone Greece.
So, what is your problem if not the fact that you simply cannot accept that your "Hellenic Ego of superiority will be struck by some impoverished Slavic imposters from the Balkans".
Do not forget, Giorgo, that our country is also a semi-impoverished nation of villagers and urban scavengers, drug dealers, smugglers and mafia pimps, just like any other country in the Balkans.
Our country is in need of a wake up call, not yet more archaeoleptic daydreamers.
ΞΥΠΝΑ ΒΑΣΙΛΗ!!!
To Giorgos:
If we can,t look at the past,what,s past now in 1922 was present for your family.I regreat what happend to your family,however,many people with simular tragedies at that time were received in Macedonia and given land,etc.Shurely enough the turks did not have any severance package for these.As christians kicked out of turkey they identified themselfs as greeks,especially for the hospitality.Saddly enough in the later history they forgot the troubles they went thru and are the most vigorous defenders of the macedonia issue at the expense of the local macedonians who were dispursed around the world.
To Macedonian :
I totally disagree on the way Slav-macedonians were treated from the Greek state and I support that the files should be examined and the greek state to regret for what it has done. The reason on why they acted like this is mainly what you have told about 1922. The ''destruction in Asia -Minor'' as we call it here, was something that still haunt us. And this is not only the loss and the exhange of population which occured after the war which make us bleed. It is the way local Greek treated the refugees. And believe me there were huge social problems with their coming here. The feeling of the Greek state and -merely- of the greek society that we cannot cede any province was the main reason for treating slav-macedonians that way. In 1924 when the Greek Communist Party proposed an autonomous Macedonia (the greek part) following the directions of the USSR caused huge political condemn from the other parties and many communists were hunted. When we study history we must come to the position of the other in order to understand his reactions. We cant judge anyone only by looking history with our eyes.
All i can say is that most greeks i've met or crossed paths with, they all think that they know their history and they think it's okay to name another nationallity to what ever name it suit them. It's the 21 century and every nation has it's own right to call them self what ever they want as long as its not another nations name. Greek part of Macedonia is not a nation, it's a state which in 1988 changed it's name to Macedonia, before that it used to be known as Northern Greece. The Greek Government changed it's name few months before Yugoslavia broke up. Austalia has a state called Victoria, Canada has a region called Victoria and so and so. FYROM has the right to call them selfs as Macedonians cos it falls in the Geographical Macedonia and no other country has that name.
Being Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia let me express my view regarding your article: We are Macedonians because we are the native population of our homeland Macedonia. If we have any connection with the Ancient Macedonians is completely irrelevant. Our nationhood is of modern origin, much like the nationhood of all other nations. All modern nations, you Greeks too, are 19 century creations. Your connection with the ancient Hellene is merely constructed and imagined.
Greece failed to embrace its northern neighbor as a new sovereign state. Unable to overcome its xenophobia, it did not step up to the plate and help heal the Balkan turmoil, but it rather became a part of the Balkan problem.
Now Greek politicians talk about a compromise. A deal where one side is supposed to give up there very name and identity, and the other side is supposed to give up nothing, can hardly be called a compromise.
I don’t see one single reason why Republic of Macedonia should make any changes to its name. It is not simply Macedonia, but Republic of Macedonia, meaning that it has a constitution and defined borders.
Slav, the term was first coined in the late 19th century. Translation using modern Macedonian is Glory. So when the Macedonian evangelists Kiril and Methodija spread the Christian faith the true or Macedonian word Pravo-Slav would be True Glory.
How does this fit in to this comment board. These Macedonians (Slavs) where internationalists like Alexander the Great. They believed in the one true and ever living God.
Almost exactly the same as Alexander but 1000 years later.
It seems that the modern Macedonian state has avoided all the heavy ethnic conflicts and still, under tremendous nationalistic pressure from its internal and external neighbors has been able to grant all of its citizens freedom of expression. What would Alexander the Great think of the modern Greek state and its policy of minority rights today. What kind of democracy are these Greeks promoting and where do they believe it will take them in the future.
Today there are 2 countries in the world that have a problem with the Republic of Macedonia and guess who they are? Greece and Bulgaria.
Why?
Because both Greece and Bulgaria gain a piece of the geographical region of Macedonia in 1913, which over 100 years ago was a complete and united Macedonia.
The Macedonian People had no one to complain to not even Europe because in 1914 not even one year later World War 1 had started.
Then followed the Great Depression in the 1920's & 30's and the followed World War 2 and after the war Yugoslavia was Born under Mashall Tito. Tito gave freedom to every race in that part of the balkans. Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia ect...........
But the two other countries Greece and Bulgaria Failed to give the Macedonian People freedom to speak their mother touge, and follow their traditions.
No one cared from Europe because the new era of the cold war just started.
Nearly 60 years later Republic of Macedonia (or FYROM the name that the Greeks call us) still has to deal with idiotic people like the Greeks and Bulgarians for a self identity.
How long can the world turn a blind eye for?
Sooner or later the truth will came out and the only people that will look like the biggest fools on the face of this planet is the Greeks. But it's not too late to redeem yourselfs. (refering to the Greeks)
Greek Propaganda,would itself its smart enough to judge what is ,and what was Macedonia today and Macedonia in Ancient times.
Under UN law, every country has universal right for self-determination.I think R.Macedonia should seek the justice through The International Court of Justice against Greek pressures, and the blackmail pushed ,with EU support concerning provisional name which was forced to them "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
How would Greeks feel if someone obliged them to call themselves "Former Ottoman Province of Greece" ?
Doesn't sound good, right?
Greece, its about time , and you should wake up!!!
You idiots don't get it, do you???
You will be smashed, fucked and destroyed loool
Greek people and greek army are on their way from the south, Bulgarians from the east and Albanians from the west.
Only your criminal brother Serbs are not against you, And they will do nothing to save your asses LOOOOOL
Your connection to Macedonia is similar to chinese connection to the Kaffres.
You are Slavs, pechenegs, Skythes, and fucking barbarians
low life idiots.
YOU DON'T DESERVE TO LIVE. see you in hell LOOOOL
In the southern Balkans they will be only THREE ETHNICITIES: Greeks, Turks, Slavs and Albanians. You choose which one you are, or go find your maker.
It;s your turn after Kosovo, MORONS LOOOOL
It's really funny how all you ec-communist morons look at the world LOOOOL
Nothing can save you, not the UN, not the court of Justice, not even your Serb culprits. And certainly not the... 120 nations that have... recognised you LOOOOL. They just scrarch their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots, MORONS
You ought to thank your maker that you survived that long. The Ottomans should have cleared you out. But you kept wiping their asses whenever you were in trouble, so they let you be.
Tito is gone and the Russians have troubles of their own, so FUCK YOU morons, you are dead.
The Ancient Macedonians, just like the Ancient Spartans & Athenians were all GREEK tribes. Any rational person with the most elementary knowledge of history knows this.
The present day Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has absolutely no relation to the Ancient Greek Kindgom of Macedonia (Macedon) and The Ancient Greek Macedonians of antiquity, such as Alexander The Great.
The citizens of Fyrom are slavs of Bulgarian ancestory, who migrated into the Balkans in the 6th century AD, that means 600 years after jesus christ, that is almost 1000 years after the death of Alexander The Great.
How can a slav nation who live in a small country, and more than 50% of the country was not even part of King Phillips historical Macedonia claim their country to be called Macedonia.
How can a slav nation, appropriate for themselves a hellenic name, (MACEDONIA, MACEDONIAN) hellenic history and a hellenic symbol when it doesn't belong to them, and they know this, but they continue to shamelessly bark like dogs that they are Macedonians, that the speak Macedonian, and they are decentants of Ancient Macedonians?
Every person has a right to an identity, but no one has the right to use an identity that belongs to another nation for thousands of years, this is called IDENTITY THEFT and it's a crime, it's a fraud, the biggest fraud in world history.
If Serbia started calling themselves Romans and their country Rome, I think Italy would react the same as Greece is, fighting for what is rightfully theirs.
Fyrom and its diaspora are a disorintated bunch, because they are Bulgarians but claim to be "Macedonian", they speak a Bulgarian dialect, but claim their language is "Macedonian" and claim the Ancient Macedonians spoke their language, but till this day can't provide ONE piece of archiological evidence, that's cause all the evidence is written in Ancient Greek, the language of Alexander The Great and his Greek Macedonian successors, these people lie about history like there is no tomorrow, but then they claim to be the victims, cause they can't take the truth.
It's really funny, how you ex-communist morons view the wold
You think the UN, the International Court or anybody else is going to save you?? LOOOOL Or maybe the 120 countries that have... recognised you as "Macedonia"?? LLLOL They are scratching their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots
The Russians have prob;ems of their own and Tito is dead and gone. AND, VMRO will be a piece o' cake for the Albanians.
The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be.
It's over now though LOOOL
hey you moron from Prague
LOOOOOL
Greek people would say to you, or anybody like you, simply "Molon Lave".
You know what that means moron???
I guess not. your brain isn't big enough for that LOOOOOL
PS. I got a couple of your countrymen here wiping my ass, would you like to join them??
It doesn't really matter. The Republic of Macedonia is a failing state and I predict it will be a memory by the middle of the century.
The few wealthy members of the diaspora refuse to invest due to the highly corrupt bureaucracy. In fact, Greece, the country with the largest political ax to grind with Macedonia (re: Name Issue), is the country's largest investor. How perverted is that?
Many educated Macedonians are leaving for Bulgaria (taking their passports where they have to claim Bulgarian ethnicity!) or the West the first chance they get. And though their birthrate has slowed somewhat, the Albanians are still on a clear path to becoming, if not the majority population, then certainly a plurality within decades.
My roots are from the all three major parts of Macedonia but I have no affinity with any of the nationalisms in the Balkans (even though I claim a Macedonian identity in a general sense). They're all lies in my eyes. The claims of many proclaiming a Macedonian ethnicity that we Macedonians are united and will one day have a united, geographic Macedonia are laughable. In the first place, we were NEVER united and never will be. There are too many of us who did and continue to claim a Greek or Bulgarian (or even Serbian) identity for that to ever happen. Even in the Republic of Macedonia itself, which I have visited on three occasions, there are pockets of Macedonians I met who have little confidence in Macedonia's future and are preparing to throw in their lot with Bulgaria, Serbia, or even Greece when the country inevitably crumbles. The Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria, on the other hand, are (for better or for worse) almost entirely assimilated today and unfortunately have no desire to be a part of any ethnic Macedonian movement.
The far bigger problem, however, is that the Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia have a bigger interest in dissolving the country than the Macedonians have in continuing it.
The clock is ticking and the end is only a matter of time.
You Greeks are missing the point here, over the last decade the Greeks have denied to recognize Macedonia and look out for it's own Greek intrests. Since 1991 when Greece first objected to the Republic, we have see the rise of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia. How many Albanians are there in Greece working in the farms as slave labour. Just remember it started the same way in the other balkan countries, you can't continue to recognize them as muslims. Sooner or later the Greeks will lose a slice of Macedonia to the Albanians. The Albanians are similar to the Turks and we know that the Greeks and the Turks don't get along over the Cyprus, which in my opinion Cyprus is Turkish. Not too far in the distant future Greece will be serounded in enemies all around.
Makedonia
Mak e donia
Maika= mother
Dome= home
In Macedonian, I'm sorry Slavic, means mothers home, or motherland.
Now translate using Greek. I dont think so!
Zeus and Kathrine
Thats right, let it out, show the world your true colors. Is this where you would like to see Europe and the Balkans heading. Back to the feudal days. Wake up, these are real people we are talking about.
Did the EU miss something. What happened to life, liberty, and persuit. Im dumbfounded.
All I can say is that I have done some travels through Macedonia and my first hand impression was being in gods country. Beautiful country and people. As for some Greeks and my travels in Greece, I wish I could say the same!
Hey Zeus,
What the fuk are you waiting for, come on then big man, all tough and brave you fukn plastic internet warrior. Attack Macedonia, come on then, let me see you do that then. You and all your other similar nationalistic, psycho, xenophobic, nazi mates are the ones that ruin it for everyone in the Balkans.
Whats another war gonna solve? Nothing! So stop your showing off and fukn attack Macedonia then. The most powerful military in the world can't keep the peace in Iraq and you think your going smash and destroy R_o_Macedonia. Yeah, thats funny. Im not saying that R_o_Macedonia's army is stronger than greece's, not even close but for fuk's sake, you think your going to occupy Macedonia and keep the peace without a shitload of your soldiers being blown up everyday.
I apologise to moderate greeks and everyone else who was commenting constructively but its idiots like zeus on all sides who are stopping the entire balkans from moving forward and becoming prosperous and in greece's case even more prosperous.
Eureka, your attempt to recognize Macedonia as a slavic name is flawed, another misconseption and falsification of facts and history. If you were a TRUE Macedonian, as you claim you then would have been familiar that the origin of the name is Doric meaning tall, to describe them as tall people. How can you even claim that the name Macedonia is even Slavic, when the Slavic language never even originated from that region, but in the region of current Lithuania
come on print my previous comment you fucken soft cocks. These fucken greeks can come on here and mouth off and use terms like fucking and idiots and so on and you wont print my post. Fuck you, Fuck the Greek Nation and Fuck all the GREEK people around the world because you will pay for what you have done to my people. My grandfather was MACEDONIAN my father is MACEDONIAN Im MACEDONIAN my children are MACEDONIAN and my grandchildren will be MACEDONIAN and so on forever!!! and you tell me you motherfucking greek what the fuck are you going to do about that? I'll tell you. FUCKING ABSOLUTELY JACKSHIT!!!!!
You dont print my previous posts which were constructive and and reconciliatory but you print that one? which was written out of frustration because you couldn't cope with some criticisim. what is wrong with people????
Pete,
i don't think anybody can refuse posting your comments. Maybe you didn't wait long enough for it to be trnsmitted. Try again. And let that steam out, it'll do you good looool
Bob
Yours is an excellent analysis of what has happened to Macedonia in the past, and what will probably happen in the future. Just one remark: In the Byzantine times, the so called "Macedonian Dynasty" whose founder was an Armenian (Basil I) used the area for deporting heretics from the east. The Turks, the Bulgarians, the Greeks, did the same. And this is the drama of the Balkans: different tribes, different ethnicities, different people were never given the chance to settle down and live together.
There is only one solution here: Let anybody who feels like it declare himself as Macedonian. Let's forget about the ancient Macedonians (who - by the way - were Greeks, all the way), let's leave the issue of Alexander behind us (he was not that... humane, anyway lol), let's declare that Macedonia is a geographically defined area and let us hope that soon borders, flags, and the like will be much less important than what they seem ti be today.
In the mean time, we should all realize that noone should insult the others and we all should yield something to our neighbors.
Having and distributing maps wtih some obsolete country called "Macedonia" reaching down to Salonica, definetely does not help. Nor does it help to call a small portion of the area "Macedonia".
And, by the way, being Macedonian doesn't automatically rule out being Greek or Albanian or Serb or Bulgarian, or Turk, or whatever. You are looking at one such case: I am Greek and Macedonian. I feel others in Macedonia are my brothers, i will fight for them to be able to speak their language and prevent their culture - but they should realize that their's is not the only culture in the area.
The most important issue here, though, is to solve the problems by ourselves, without interventions from peoples and pressure groups outside the area. This is really a problem. Most of the newly formed states here are suffering from the "Big Brother Syndrom". That's very unfortunate, because, as we all know from experience, "there is not such a thing as a free lunch..."
to eureka
That is a very interesting etimological analysis there!
And totally destorted, as well. Loooool
Macedonia, as a name, a region, a concept, was here long before Slavs and Pechenegs reached the area and brought their language along !!
Eureka, you are a typical example of what we don't need around here. In a future "Macedonian State", Eureka, you ought to loose your... citizenship (just kidding, of course)
OK here's my response to Selimstan who is trying to pass himself off as educated. I have copied part of your question to me below;
And please, enlighten me: where is all this condemnation of Greece by the international organizations? i haven't seen any of that recently. Nor have i seen anything vaguely suggesting of 'a large "macedonian" minority in Northern Greece'. Stefan, this is wishful thinking,
Well here is something copied from the Human Rights Watch Organisation. When you feebly try to discredit this global organisation then I will send you something from Amnesty International, and then the UN etc. I pity you, as you seem to be the most brainwashed out of everyone...
The Macedonians of Greece
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally-recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government — followed and threatened by security forces — and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their descendants who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit northern Greece. By contrast, all of these are possible for political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Greek courts have denied permission to establish a "Center for Macedonian Culture." Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity. (From our “Denying Ethnic Identity” series)
HRW Index No.: ISBN 1-56432-132-0
May 1, 1994
thank you Stefan,
go ahead and insult me. I don't mind. You and yours have done a lot worse to YOUR OWN countrymen, just for having another religion...
Let me just refer you to Zeus's last posting.
AND, i said 'recently'. 1994 is not that recent, now, is it?
HA, brainwashed, hey?? looool
coming from a Serb, this is almost a compliment loool
Hey Zeus kai loipoi FASISTES,
Malaka fasista, etsi kai se eixa mprosta mou tha sou erixna mia koutoulia re tsoglane gia na matheis na symperiferesai san anthrwpos, zwon tis diasporas.
Atoma san ki esena exoune mavrisei tin eikona tis Elladas, ere an se petyxw tha sou mavrisw to mati.
You nazi Greeks make me feel ashamed to be part of the same national group as you. You belong to the outskirts of WWII history, morons.
When my grandfather was fighting the Italians, the Germans and the nazi Bulgarians in the Great War, you mongrel skinheads, he knew that there was a Macedonian nation living next to his native Thessaly alongside the Greeks of Macedonia, in peace, for many years before Metaxas gained power.
You, you idiotic diaspora-brainwashed orthodox lunatics, with your "refined" rhetoric, littered with historical references from the 4th century BC, which you present as of biblical importance, are MANIPULATING semiotics in order to demonstrate that a nation of 2 million people do not exist IN THE 21st century YOU FOOLS!!!
Ante sto diavolo vrwmera apovrasmata, Chrysavgites, STIN PYRA REEEEEEE, akrodexia fidia.
Δάσκαλε
Δεν καταλαβαίνω από που συνάγεις οτι είμαι φασίστας. Και ακροδεξιός !
Εγώ πάντως θεωρώ τον ευατό μου σοσιαλιστή, αντιρατσιστή και προοδευτικό. Όσο για... χρυσαυγίτη, τί είναι πάλι αυτό;
Και μην εξάπτεσαι Δάσκαλε, με κουτουλιές και τέτοια, θα... φας το κεφάλι σου.
Και ποιά διασπορά ΡΕ ΜΑΛΑΚΑ; Γεννήθηκα στα Εξάρχεια και ζω στην Πολιτεία, ΚΑΤΑΛΑΒΕΣ;
Αν πάλι θες ΝΑ ΣΕ ΓΑΜΗΣΩ, πες μου που και πότε. Έχω ότι χρειάζεται για να σε στείλω στο νοσοκομείο: ΛΕΦΤΑ, ΑΡΧΙΔΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΛΟ ΔΙΚΗΓΟΡΟ
Zeus wrote at 63.
"It's really funny, how you ex-communist morons view the wold
You think the UN, the International Court or anybody else is going to save you?? LOOOOL Or maybe the 120 countries that have... recognised you as "Macedonia"?? LLLOL They are scratching their balls and wait for the Americans to call the shots
The Russians have prob;ems of their own and Tito is dead and gone. AND, VMRO will be a piece o' cake for the Albanians.
The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be.
It's over now though LOOOL"
Ρε οπαδέ των εθνικών εκκαθαρίσεων, θίχτηκες?
Ξέρεις γιατί θίχτηκες βρε παπάρι? Γιατί όποιος έχει τη μύγα τον επαίρνει από την κωλοτρυπίδα.
Εγώ δικηγόρος είμαι, μαλάκα, επομένως για να σε γαμήσω το μόνο που έχω να κάνω είναι να σε ξεβρακώσω.
Αρχίδια δικηγόρος είσαι looool
Κάτι σαν παπαδάνθρωπο σε κάνω. Και οπαδό του Ορθόδοξου Συναγερμού (Λαϊκού και χέρι... χέρι)
Που νομίζεις οτι μίλησα για "εθνικές εκκαθαρίσεις";
Οι Οθωμανοί, ρε ανιστόρητε, μόνο εθνικές εκκαθαρίσεις δεν έκαναν, Ούτε καν εθνότητες δεν αναγνώριζαν.
Ή μήπως αμφισβητείς οτι οι Αμερικάνοι κάνουν κουμάντο στην περιοχή; Και οτι τα Σκόπια προσφέρουν γη και ύδωρ για να επιβιώσουν.
Και δεν θίγομαι τόσο εύκολα...
Αν επιμένεις να με ξεβρακώσεις, σε προειδοποιώ... θα απογοητευτείς loool
Μια απλή ανάγνωση προηγούμενων δηλώσεών μου, αρκεί για να αποδείξει κανείς το αναληθές των λόγων σου, συκοφάντη της πλάκας.
Επαναλαμβάνω, επειδή μάλλον αργόστροφος είσαι -
Εσύ δεν είπες "The Ottomans should had done away with you, but everytime you were in trouble, you just wiiped their asses, so they let you be" στο post 63?
Το αφήνω αμετάφραστο.
Αρε κακομοίρη. Ούτε το νόημα των λόγων σου δεν κατέχεις, πόσο μάλλον αρχίδια, τα οποία μας διαφημίζεις κιόλας.
Με αποκαλείς ανιστόρητο, αμόρφωτε.
Καλά ρε, ανεκδιήγητε, δεν έχεις ακούσει ποτέ για τη γεννοκτονία των Αρμενίων? http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...
Άν δεχτούμε ότι οι Οθωμανοί δεν αναγνώριζαν εθνότητες, μπούφο, τότε εσύ κι εγώ δεν θα υπήρχαμε. Θα είμασταν Τούρκοι.
Ποιός δημιούργησε το Ορθόδοξο Μιλλέτ (ΕΘΝΟΣ) το 1453 μαλάκα? Γιατί ο Γεννάδιος ο Β' ο Σκολάριος έφερε τον τίτλο του "ΕΘΝΑΡΧΗ"?
Αντί για δικηγόρο, καλύτερα να ξοδέψεις τα λεφτά σου σε ιδιαίτερα.
Δάσκαλε,
Επειδή τώρα μπαίνεις στα χωράφια μου, άκου για να μαθαίνεις:
Οι Οθωμανοί, τουλάχιστον μέχρι την εποχή της παρακμής της αυτοκρατορίας τους στις αρχές του 18ου αιώνα δεν αναγνώριζαν εθνότητες, αλλά μόνο θρησκείες. Και το ορθόδοξο millet δεν είναι εθνότητα, αλλά θρησκεία, μπούφε!
Η γενοκτονία των Αρμενίων έίναι έργο της αποσύνθεσης της Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας και του ανατέλλοντος κράτους των Νεοτούρκων.
Αλλά, ...Δάσκαλε (looool) αν θες να μάθεις περισσότερα για την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία, σε παραπέμπω στο τελευταίο βιβλίο μου "Η Αυτοκρατορία της Τουλίπας" που θα κυκλοφορήσει στις αρχές του 2008 από τις Εκδόσεις Κέδρος και από το οποίο παραθέτω εδώ (με την άδεια του συντονιστή) ένα μέρος από την εισαγωγή (σε δυο μέρη):
...Αυτό το βιβλίο αναφέρεται σε ανθρώπους που δεν υπάρχουν. Το όνομα ‘Οθωμανός’ δεν προσδιορίζει ούτε περιοχές ούτε ανθρώπους. Κανείς πια δεν μιλά τη γλώσσα τους. Λίγοι μόνο ερευνητές σε σύγχρονα Πανεπιστήμια αρχίζουν να καταλαβαίνουν τη λογοτεχνία τους.
Για εξακόσια χρόνια όμως, η Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία υπήρξε, μεγάλωσε, αναπτύχθηκε και διαλύθηκε. Ξεκίνησε από ένα μικρό μπεϊλίκι στις παρυφές των λόφων της Ανατολίας στις αρχές του 14ου αιώνα, για να υποτάξει το κραταιό Βυζάντιο – ή τουλάχιστον ότι είχε απομείνει από αυτό – όλη τη χερσόνησο των Βαλκανίων από την Αδριατική μέχρι τη Μαύρη Θάλασσα, την Ελλάδα, τη Σερβία, τη Βουλγαρία, τα Πριγκιπάτα της Βλαχίας και της Μολδαβίας βόρεια του Δούναβη. Πήρε όλη την Ανατολία. Υπέταξε όλους τους λαούς της περιοχής, ακόμα και τους άγριους Τατάρους της Κριμαίας. Με την άλωση της Κωνσταντινούπολης το 1453 ολοκλήρωσε τον έλεγχο της Μαύρης Θάλασσας. Το 1517 κατέκλυσε την καρδιά του Ισλάμ: Τη Συρία, την Αραβία και την Αίγυπτο, μαζί με τις Ιερές Πόλεις Μέκκα και Μεδίνα. Οι Οθωμανοί έλεγχαν για 500 χρόνια τους πανάρχαιους δρόμους που μετέφεραν πολιτισμό από την Ανατολή στη Δύση, τη Μέση Ανατολή. Η αυτοκρατορία τους εκτεινόταν από το Δούναβη στο Νείλο και από την Αδριατική στον Ευφράτη.
Η Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία υπήρξε Ισλαμική, πολεμόχαρη, πολιτισμένη και ανεκτική. Όσοι ζούσαν πέρα από τα σύνορά της, σε χώρες γνωστές στο Ισλάμ σαν Νταρ Ουλ-Χαρμπ, (Ο κόσμος ή η στέγη του πολέμου), την έτρεμαν ή την σέβονταν, ανάλογα με τα συμφέροντά τους. Για τους υπηκόους της ήταν το Νταρ Ουλ-Ισλάμ, ο κόσμος της ειρήνης. Τόσο ευνομούμενη και λειτουργική, ένα θαύμα ανθρώπινης διάνοιας, που ο μύθος ήθελε θεϊκές δυνάμεις – διαβολικές για μερικούς – να συμμετέχουν στη δημιουργία της.
Στις αρχές του δέκατου-έβδομου αιώνα, το θαύμα αυτό κρατικής υπόστασης άρχισε να δείχνει σημεία κατάρρευσης. Η σημασία της Μεσογείου στο διεθνές εμπόριο ιδεών και αγαθών πέρναγε σιγά-σιγά σε δεύτερη μοίρα. Η εξάπλωση του Ισλάμ είχε ήδη αναχαιτισθεί. Ο δρόμος για την Άπω Ανατολή, τα χρυσάφια και τα μπαχαρικά της, δεν πέρναγε πια από τους αμμόλοφους της Σαχάρας ή τα μονοπάτια της Μέσης Ανατολής. Οι μεγάλοι Πορτογάλοι θαλασσοπόροι, με τον περίπλου της Αφρικής, άνοιξαν νέους ορίζοντες. Τα σκλαβοπάζαρα της δύσμοιρης Αφρικής ήταν ήδη πιο σημαντικά από την ύπαρξη της γηραιάς και δύσμορφης Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας. Και κυρίως, νέες πολλά υποσχόμενες αγορές άνοιγαν πέρα από τον Ατλαντικό. Στον κόσμο των Οθωμανών, οι μάχες είχαν ήδη κερδηθεί και τα οπλικά επιχειρήματα ήταν ξεπερασμένα. Η μοίρα είχε ήδη γραφτεί και οι ίδιοι οι Οθωμανοί ζούσαν ακόμα περισσότερο στο παρελθόν και στις περασμένες τους δόξες. Όχι πως οι ίδιοι οι Οθωμανοί δεν ήξεραν τη μοίρα τους: Τα πρώτα σχέδια για τη διάνοιξη της διώρυγας του Σουέζ έγιναν από αρχιτέκτονες στη Μεγάλη Πύλη.
Και όμως, άλλα διακόσια χρόνια πέρασαν μέχρι την αναπόφευκτη συντριβή. Παρά τη σήψη στην κεφαλή της αυτοκρατορίας και την αναταραχή στις ρίζες της. Παρά τις ηρωικές εξεγέρσεις των πολυεθνικών της υπηκόων. Και κυρίως, παρά τις προσπάθειες των ‘γιατρών’ για μια σύντομη και αξιοπρεπή ευθανασία, ο εσχατόγερος ασθενής δεν έλεγε να αποδημήσει, επέζησε και αυτών των δεινότερων θανατολόγων του: του τσάρου της Ρωσίας και του οίκου των Αψβούργων κατά τέσσερα ολόκληρα χρόνια. Ο αντιπρόσωπος του βασιλιά της Αγγλίας στη Μεγάλη Πύλη, Sir Thomas Roe, έγραφε στην κυβέρνησή του το 1621: «Είναι σαν το σώμα ενός γέρου, γεμάτο αρρώστιες και κακίες που μένουν όταν περάσει η δύναμη της νεότητας». Οι Οθωμανοί εγκατέλειψαν τη Βοσνία το 1878. Και μέχρι το 1882 ο Σουλτάνος – τεχνικά τουλάχιστον – ήταν ο Κύριος της Αιγύπτου. Η Αλβανία ήταν από τις πιο δύσκολες περιοχές που υπέταξε η Αυτοκρατορία τον δέκατο-πέμπτο αιώνα. Οι Αλβανοί όμως έστελναν κοινοβουλευτικούς εκπροσώπους στην Κωνσταντινούπολη μέχρι το 1909.
μέρος 2ο
Η αυτοκρατορία ήταν βέβαια Ισλαμική. Αν και πολλοί από τους υπηκόους της δεν ήταν Μουσουλμάνοι. Η ίδια η αυτοκρατορία δεν έκανε καμιά προσπάθεια εξισλαμισμού των απίστων υπηκόων της. Ήλεγχε τις εμπορικές οδούς ανάμεσα σε Ανατολή και Δύση, αλλά δεν είχε κανένα ιδιαίτερο ενδιαφέρον για το εμπόριο. Κατά γενική παραδοχή ήταν Τουρκική αυτοκρατορία, αλλά οι περισσότεροι από τους αξιωματούχους της ήταν Έλληνες. Διέθετε την πιο αποτελεσματική – μέχρι τότε – πολεμική μηχανή, αλλά οι περισσότεροι – και καλύτεροι – μαχητές της ήταν Σλάβοι. Ακολουθούσε τη Βυζαντινή τελετουργία, την Περσική νομενκλατούρα. Τα πλούτη της ήταν στην Αίγυπτο και η γραφή της Αραβική. Οι Οθωμανοί δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα επιρρεπείς στις Τέχνες, αλλά ένας από τους Μεγάλους Βεζίρηδες της Πύλης έκτισε περισσότερες εκκλησίες από τον Ιουστινιανό. Οι Οθωμανοί δεν υπήρξαν ποτέ φανατικοί της θρησκείας. Σαν Σουνίτες Μουσουλμάνοι ακολουθούσαν την Χανεφί, μετριοπαθή σχολή ερμηνείας του Κορανίου. Ο σουλτάνος Σουλεϊμάν ο Μεγαλοπρεπής διάβαζε ακατάπαυστα την βιογραφία του Μεγάλου Αλεξάνδρου. Γενικά, το παρελθόν δεν ενδιέφερε πολύ τους Σουλτάνους. Ο διάδοχος του Μεχμέτ του Πορθητή όμως, ο Σελίμ ο Σκληρός, ζήτησε να επισκεφθεί την Αθήνα, όπου πέρασε δύο μερόνυχτα θαυμάζοντας την Ακρόπολη. Ο Μεσαιωνικός κόσμος της Λατινικής Ευρώπης περιφρόνησε τους Οθωμανούς. Πάντως ο Ιβάν Ο Τρομερός θεωρούσε τον Μεχμέτ τον Πορθητή σαν πρότυπό του και οι Ενετοί – γνωστοί για την περιέργειά τους – εμφανώς θαύμαζαν τον τρόπο διακυβέρνησης των Οθωμανών, σε σημείο που ο πολύς Μοροζίνι πρότεινε στη Γαληνοτάτη να εφαρμόσει την «αρμονία» και απόλυτη αναλογικότητα της Οθωμανικής διακυβέρνησης.
Η Αυτοκρατορία, όχι απλώς επέζησε του μεγαλείου της, αλλά άφησε στους μεταγενέστερους συγκεκριμένα χαρακτηριστικά που πιθανόν να μην είχαν διασωθεί αλλιώς. Η Ελληνική Ορθοδοξία, αν και πριν από την επικράτηση των Οθωμανών ήταν η επικρατούσα θρησκεία – εκτός από τη Βαλκανική – και σε όλη την Νότιο Ιταλία, στις υπερδουνάβιες περιοχές της Ουγγαρίας και σε άλλες Ευρωπαϊκές περιοχές, επιβίωσε μόνο στις περιοχές της Οθωμανικής κυριαρχίας. Το ίδιο, αν όχι εντονότερο, το θέμα με τη Γλώσσα των Ελλήνων. Η Ελληνική, γλώσσα πολιτισμού, η δεύτερη γλώσσα της Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας, επέζησε μόνο στις περιοχές της Αυτοκρατορίας.
Οι καλύτεροι ναυτικοί στην Αυτοκρατορία ήταν Έλληνες, οι πιο διορατικοί έμποροι ήταν Αρμένιοι. Οι πιο αποτελεσματικοί της στρατιωτικοί, οι γενίτσαροι, ήταν Βαλκάνιοι, οι πιο ισχυροί αξιωματούχοι της ήταν Φαναριώτες – δηλαδή Έλληνες. Οι πιο πλούσιοι πολίτες της ήταν Αιγύπτιοι, και οι πιο μορφωμένοι Άραβες. Η Αυτοκρατορία έζησε τόσους αιώνες χωρίς να έχει την νησιωτική απομόνωση της Αγγλίας, την μονο-πολιτισμική συνοχή της Γαλλίας ή την θρησκευτική περιφρούρηση της Ιεράς Εξέτασης της Ισπανίας.
Ο τσάρος Αλέξανδρος – μετά τον πόλεμο της Κριμαίας, το 1856 – αποκάλεσε την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία ‘Ο Ευρωπαίος Ασθενής’ και οι Βικτοριανοί πολιτικοί της Αγγλίας αναφέρονταν σ’ αυτήν, απρόσωπα, σαν ‘Το Ανατολικό Ζήτημα’. Λύση ήταν για τις Μεγάλες Δυνάμεις η επιβολή του διαμελισμού της ασθενούς, έτσι ώστε τίποτα να μην θυμίζει τη γηραιά κυρία που τόσοι πολλοί φοβούνταν. Ένα είδος ανακύκλωσης. Όμως κάτι απέμεινε από αυτήν. Αν και άυλο, ακαθόριστο, ασαφές το άρωμα των πεντακοσίων χρόνων υπάρχει ακόμα παντού γύρω μας.
Αν το λημέρι σου είναι η παρα-ιστορία, τότε πρόσεξε να μην παραχαράξεις τουλάχιστον τους επιστημονικοφανείς όρους που χρησιμοποιείς, Τουλίπα.
Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ (Ρουμ Μιλλέτ) και οι μιλλετμπάσηδες επιλέχθησαν από το Σουλτάνο ως μέθοδος διακυβέρνησης των υπαρχόντων λαϊκών ομάδων της Ανατολικής Ρώμης.
Το μιλλέτ καθρέφτιζε, με άλλα λόγια τις υπάρχουσες εθνο-πολιτικές οργανώσεις, δεν δημιούργησε καινούριες.
Απόδειξη επ' αυτού αποτελεί το γεγονός οτι α) Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ συνέχισε να υπάγεται στον Κώδικα του Ιουστινιανού και β) οι πρώτες εθνικές επαναστάσεις υπονομεύθηκαν από τη Δύση το 19ο αιώνα και δεν ξεπήδησαν από τους γηγενείς νωρίτερα.
Επομένως, τα γεγονότα συγκλίνουν προς την εξής διαπίστωση -
1. Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ είναι η απ'ευθείας συνέχιση της Ανατολικής Ρωμαϊκής Αυτοκρατορίας και του λεγόμενου Βυζαντινού έθνους.
2. Ο ελληνόφωνος Εθνάρχης - Πατριάρχης - Μιλλετμπάσης κυβερνούσε Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ.
3. Το Ορθόδοξο μιλλέτ είναι ένα πολυπολιτισμικό έθνος, το οποίο αποτελείται από Ορθόδοξους Σλάβους, Βουλγάρους, Αλβανούς και ελληνόφωνες Ρωμαίους.
Τα Μακεδονικά βιλαέτια και η γέννηση του Μακεδονικού έθνους εντός των παραδοσιακών ορίων του Ορθόδοξου μιλλέτ (μετέπειτα όρια του Βουλγαρικού Εξαρχάτου) αποτελεί τρανό παράδειγμα εθνολογικής σύγχησης σε πρώτη φάση και διαφοροποίησης σε δεύτερη.
Εμείς οι νεο-Έλληνες (Ρωμιοί από το Ρουμ μιλλέτ) καλά θα κάνουμε να σταματήσουμε να ξύνουμε τ' αρχ(α)ί(δι)α μας και να σοβαρευτούμε λιγάκι.
Συμφωνώ.
Βέβαια, αργότερα στον πατριάρχη ανατέθηκε ολος ο Χριστιανικός πληθυσμός της Αυτοκρατορίας (και οι Λατίνοι), οι Αρμένιοι, ακόμα και οι Εβραίοι.
Οι δυο πρώτες διαπιστώσεις σου είναι σωστές,
Η τρίτη σηκώνει συζήτηση. Τί σημαίνει "πολυπολιτιστικό έθνος"; μήπως πολυεθνικός πολιτισμός;
Η 'εθνολογική σύγχυση' στην Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία αποτελεί, εν πολλοίς, την αιτία της σημερινής κατάστασης στα Βαλκάνια. Για να γίνει όμως αντιληπτή η αντιμετώπιση της εθνικής ταυτότητας από τους Οθωμανούς, διάβασε παρακαλώ το παρακάτω εδάφιο από τον μεγάλο Οθωμανό χρονικογράφο Εβλίγια Τσελέμπη, που τελείωσε τις μέρες του το 1693 στην Ινσταμπούλ, σε μετάφραση δική μου, από το βιβλίο J.W Gibbs, κεφάλαιο XLII:
«Τα σεπτά μνημεία των αγίων, των ηρώων, των Αυτοκρατόρων και των Σουλτάνων σ’ αυτή την ιερή πόλη είναι μεγαλόπρεπα και σεβαστά, από την εποχή των Χριστιανών και πριν από αυτή, όταν οι σοφοί από την Ελλάδα είχαν εδώ τους τάφους τους, ο Θεός να αναπαύει τις ψυχές τους. Όλοι αυτοί και οι δικοί τους έκαναν καλό στην Ιστανμπούλ. Και τα αμέτρητα τζαμιά με τις κουλίγιες που δείχνουν το πλούτο των Σουλτάνων και Πατισάχ στην ιερή Αυτοκρατορία μας, ο Θεός να τους χαρίζει αιώνια ειρήνη, δείχνουν τη μεγαλοσύνη της Πίστης μας σε όσους θα θελήσουν να τα επισκεφθούν στο μέλλον. Αλλά οι απλοί άνθρωποι της Ιστανμπούλ και τα έργα τους πρέπει να μνημονευθούν επίσης γιατί αυτοί είναι η μεγαλύτερη δύναμη της πόλης αυτής και θα είναι για πάντα. Οι χιλιάδες μπαμπά (πατεράδες) και ντεντέ (παππούδες) μας είναι που πρέπει να θυμόμαστε, από το παλιό Βυζάντιο μέχρι και σήμερα που οι άρχοντές μας φαίνεται να ξεχνούν. Όπως ο Ντουρμούς Ντεντέ στο Ρούμελι Χιζάρι, που όλοι οι ναυτικοί άκουγαν τη συμβουλή του για το πιο θαλάσσιο δρόμο έπρεπε να ακολουθήσουν και τον ευχαριστούσαν δίνοντάς του όταν γυρνούσαν ένα μήλο, ένα ρόδι, μια οκά κρέας. Και ο Ιλικτσί μπαμπά που είχε νερό και σερμπέτια στην αυλή του για κάθε διαβάτη και τώρα λένε ότι λίγο χώμα από τον τάφο του θεραπεύει πολλές αρρώστιες. Και ο χωρατατζής Αχμέτ Ντεντέ που πέρναγε την ώρα του κάτω από τη γέφυρα του Κασίμ Πασά και ήξερε τα ονόματα όλων των ανθρώπων, πιστών και άπιστων που τον είχαν ποτέ χαιρετήσει και χόρευε πολύ ωραία για όποιον περαστικό του το ζητούσε να ξεχάσει τα ντέρτια του. Και τον Σεΐχη Αμντούλ, πέρα στο Χάσκοϋ που όποιος περνούσε από την πόρτα του σπιτιού του άκουγε ωραίες ιστορίες από την Αβησσυνία, τη χώρα των μαύρων, που είχε επισκεφθεί πολλές φορές. Κι’ εγώ σαν παιδί κρυφάκουγα αυτές τις ιστορίες και μετά πήγα εκεί για να βρω τις πηγές του μεγάλου ποταμού Νείλου, χωρίς να βρω την άκρη, ο Θεός να συγχωρέσει τις πολλές μου αμαρτίες. Και Χριστιανοί που έχουν τα πηγάδια με το άγιασμα, ας είναι καλά και ας τους συγχωρέσει ο Αλλάχ, γιατί είναι άνθρωποι του Βιβλίου και πολλοί πιστοί λένε ότι το νερό από τα πηγάδια τους κάνει καλό στον διαβάτη και είναι πάντα καθαρό και δροσερό. Και στο Γαλατά, η πιο όμορφη συνοικία από όλες τις πόλεις που έχω δει, με τους πολλούς πειρασμούς γιατί εδώ περισσεύουν οι άπιστοι, 200.000 Έλληνες, Φράγκοι, Αρμένηδες, Εβραίοι και μόνο 64.000 πιστοί Μουσουλμάνοι, όλοι αγαπημένοι, ο φίλος μου Αλέξης ντεντέ που ψαρεύει τα καλύτερα καλκάνια και η κόρη του τα μαγειρεύει με τέχνη, και όταν πάω από κει πάντα με φιλεύει ένα, αλλά διώχνει γρήγορα το κρασί από το τραπέζι για να μη με βάλει σε πειρασμό. Στο Γαλατά υπάρχουν διακόσιες ταβέρνες που οι άπιστοι αλλά και δικοί μας άνθρωποι του Προφήτη γλεντάνε με κρασί και μουσική από τα Μουδανιά, τη Σμύρνη, την Τένεδο και άλλα γνωστά για τα αμπέλια τους μέρη. Ο Θεός να τους συγχωρέσει όλους γιατί είναι καλοί και άξιοι"
Ας πούμε κι εμείς τα ιδια σήμερα
Πολύ καλά τα τελευταία σου σχόλια Zeus και φυσικά συμφωνώ με την σύγχυση ως αίτιο του Βαλκανικού προβλήματος.
Όπου πολυπολιτιστικός βλέπε "multicultural" και όχι "multiethnic".
Η έννοια χρησιμοποιείται από ακαδημαϊκους κύκλους σε σχέση με το Βυζάντιο, την Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία και πιο πρόσφατα τη Βρετανία του Τόνι Μπλερ και την ΕΕ.
Η πολυπολιτιστική κοινωνία αποτελεί την Ιθάκη των Δημοκρατιών μετά το τέλος του ΔΠΠ.
Κακώς μέχρι τώρα ο όρος δεν έχει χρησιμοποιηθεί για να περιγράψει το Βυζάντιο από Έλληνες στοχαστές, οι οποίοι δυστυχώς βλέπουν μονάχα την γαλανόλευκη εκδοχή της Ανατολικής Ρώμης.
Στην Ελλάδα, ο όρος χρησιμοποιείται κυρίως από τον χώρο της αριστεράς, ενώ παραδόξως διεθνώς χρησιμοποιείται από νεο-φιλελεύθερους, πρώην σοσιαλιστικούς οργανισμούς όπως το Εργατικό Κόμμα στη Βρετανία.
What's going on???? I was educated at Wst Point, not by Arisotle.
I hope somebody gets it.
yea, we understand your problem "Macedonian", but don't worry, we can suggest a nice list of books for you to catch up with some real education looool
Really, sry about that. No more greek, english from now on
I can inform the Greeks that they can debate in greek in the greek section of the blog! Also, If you have any proposals in historical issues which we can debate you can just inform me and I can upload them. As for any comments that you cant see them probalby they are marked as junk- this is an automatic process- I will publish them as soon as possible. Here we dont sencor anything! And if you want I would like to see some proposals over democracy in the other category. Its worthy if we can make suggestions for future than debating over the past!
Oh for Gods sakes, whats this this world caming too. In todays world there are people starving to death, our climate is poison, people are blowing them self's in the name of allah and we killing all the animals on this planet.
And you guys and girls are fuckin debating over who should have th name of Macedonia. There's more important issues in stake for man kind than fuckin history.
And what TA FUCK is that, moron Zak ? (it rhymes with frere Jack, loool)
ps, what is this man kind Zak? some kind of animal or do you mean mankind?
and how many "Gods" can you fit in a "saker"?
True, moron Zak, "whats this this world caming to" LOOOOOL
HINT: write in your mother tongue Zak, if you have a mother that is
The Macedonian people suffered under the ottomen empire for over 500 years, began in the medi evil times and it finished 1913.
Then the Greeks and Bugarians took over, which inflicked more damage and suffering in the last 95 years to the Macedonian people than what the Ottomen empire did in 500 years. You Greeks should take a look at your self's becouse your like the contries Iran, Syria, Lebanon, all terrorists.
Greeks are terrorists, they blow up the US embassy cos the US reconized the Republic of Macedonia and came up with a bullshit story.
I've never seen this much history about one country called Greece, there are so many books on Greek history you can fill up a Football statium. And if it was possible to read all those books you will find that each book has a different story about their own history. It's all mixed up history, but that wasen't enougth for the Greeks, they even stole the Macedonian history and added it to their own and make things more complicated for the Macedonian people today.
As you can see in this web page all the Greeks have their own virson of history. And if you look at the Macedonians you will see that all they want is to be Macedonian, not Greek Macedonian, just Macedonian.