Skopje versus Athens..and the battle goes on!
As you probably know Athens on Tuesday strongly criticised Skopje's decision to file a complaint against Greece in the International Court of Justice, and said FYROM would "remain outside the international organisations it wants to join" during the judicial process. Skopje is accusing Athens of violating the terms of a 1995 UN agreement between them. Is that the case?
on 19-11-2008 By Elina - The ''Greek'' Files
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this is really getting old. Why doesn't FYROM just accept that by simply adding a simple "Northern" or "Slav" or "Vardar" before Macedonia they could be beoming a proper country with all the full rights they deserve??
Both Greece and Republic of Macedonia are really wonderful countries with wonderful people, and I dont' really see the point why FYROM is being so stubborn about "retaining" a name that only prevents them from grabing their political opportunities to grow. A name that, it was never fully theirs anyway.
Why o why did Tito have to decide that it was the best one for them?? I personally prefer Vardarska a thousand times, it sounds sexier ;)
@ Patricia
you can not tell me how to call myself thats a basic human right violation, second there is no other country in the world called Macedonia ,why Greece doesn't change their name to Ottoman province of Greece , because Macedonia doesn`t like her neighbor to be called Greece , this is absurd suggestion by nationalistic Greece for one country to tell the other to change it`s name , Greece is far from democracy and its the only EU member state that does not recognize minority rights , take that for democracy
i think that the whole thing gets a bit ridiculous and it doesn't make sense if we consider that it's just about the name. If we do focus only on the name issue then i guess Greece is right at this stage - it has left a good space for FYROM to make a move out of this. But if we focus on the name then we will need to forget the nationalist passions that the whole argument accommodated a few years ago (and to some extend it still accommodates) in both countries. This is a side that traps polticians of both countries restricting their actions: How could the government of FYROM accept anything less than what it has been presented uncritically as a 'right' for the last years? And how could the Greek government approve any plan that doesnt satisfy the nationalist mind of Greek citizen at times of marginal parliamentary majority?
i think that we need to strip the issue out of anything that complicates it further. To discuss about minorities rights' in Greece and to link it with this issue doesnt help. To discuss about how 'artificial' is FYROM's national identity doesnt help either. there is a responsibility for citizens of both countries to push for a solution to this. They need to push for a slution rather being part of the problem
I have to agree with Patricia at the point why FYROM is so stubborn about the name, that is for me the part that is most reprehensible. Is someone else pushing them because comme on i would never sacrify political opportunities and the "best yet to come" for that and no political leader would. I also do not understand all this passion about the issue. I know that they do not doubt their Slav identity (7th century after Christ) so why insisting in something that is is already historical "acquis" from times long before Christ. What is so precious about the name Macedonia that they run after. And komita, i think you exaggerate for us to discuss in logical terms.
Macedonia is stubborn about it's own name? WTF!?! It must be the first country in the world that feels that way about its name. On the other hand, maybe we should call ourselves 38% Macedonia? Or we should ask all of our neighbors to think about our name and vote down to whatever they think we should use?
On the other hand, let's give the right to Greek Macedonia to choose it's name. 51% Macedonia? Or Southern Macedonia? Or Former Ancient Lower Macedonia? You choose. It's your right.
Or maybe we should stop worrying about our relative in neighboring countries and we should not worry about their human rights... As there are no problems in Asia Minor or Albania...
Finally, the proceedings before ICJ are not about the name. They are about the veto for NATO. If you are right, you will win. Don't you worry at all. We are adults and we choose our fate. Also, if you continue to be intransigent and stubborn the next logical step are proceeding about the temporary UN reference. But you should not worry as you are 100% right. And don't threat with EU accession - in 2020 there will be no right to veto anymore...
See you in NATO and EU,
Kupe
First of all, it is basic human right to be called as you want.
Second, there is city in USA called Athens and also Athens is the capital of Greece? So who has the right?
Third, there are couple of cities Aleksandria in the world, so who has the right of that name?
Fourth,There is a county Luxembourg and an area in Belgium called Luxembourg. No problems there...
Changing the name by adding an adjective is not a problem. Problems are the issues about the nationality and the language. If we called the Macedonians North-Macedonians for instance, is it in a way creation of new nationality? It is not so simple to change the Constiution, only because of someone's will to present power. The lucky curcumstandes for the Greeks is the fact that they have entered in EU earlier. And furthermore, Macedonia will accept agreement only for the name, only for international use, excepting the countries that recognised it under its constitutional name. No questions about nationality and language.
And do not forget about the macedonian minority in Greece, the macedonian journalists who were taken to police because they wanted to made a report about the macedonian minority there (where is the freedom of expression, that EU so loud talk about), the truck drivers that were brutally attacked only cuz they have mark "MK" on the lorry (which is obligative if you are coming from Macedonia), don't forget all the steps that Greece has made only to underestimate the macedonian people.
The county that wants to tell stories how they invented the democracy, nowadays needs to practice demoracy...It seems as it has passed such a long time as Greece has demoracy...Such a long time, two thousand years, that even made them forget about the real meaning of that word...
First things first, for those that express opinions without knowing first.
We are talking about an old Yugoslav republic, who's name was Vardaska and Boninova up to 1944.
Tito changed its name to Macedonia, for access to the mediteranian sea, blah blah blah.
Why does Greece object?
In the case one has not noticed this ex Yugoslav republic
wants the Name Macedonia and all that comes with it,
ie Alexander the Great and all ancient Macedonian history.
Hmmmmmm, interesting as it is absurd.
One has only to google the word Macedonia and visit some FYROMIAN blogs to see what I mean.
The amount of filth that comes out of certain people like Risto Stefov and his gang is unbelievable.
A whole world of antiGreek propaganda, Alexandroski blogs ets..
As long as FYROM politician Gruevski and his cabinet continue this 'philosophy' Greece will be found behind all the closing doors.
Greece is in the right!.
FYROM has a right to self identification but not in this way!!!
We want to sit on our Beaches in Thessaloniki, Macedonia (Not Solun!) and relax.
Take care!
I would like just to remind to some ignorant people that Great Britain was obliged to change its name to United Kingdom in order to enter the EU. And it was a francogerman demand. So i do not see any difference between that and the fyrom question. I just see stupid nationalists who want people to be distracted from their real problems.
@ Anna
I agree with the spirit of your words, however I want to make some objections
1. There are many places in the US named ''Athens''. But as far I know, there are no maps of the US which include the Greek capital in its borders. And as for the Luxembourg, let me remind that the official name is ''The Grand Duchate of Luxembourg''. And as far I know, Luxembourg doesnt print maps with the belgian region of Luxembourg as part of the ''motherland''
2. As for the SlavMacedonian nation, it is idiot to say that is doesnt exist. From sociological view, the birth of the slavmacedonian nation is much alike all the other balkan nations. The problem is that the national narrative of this nation is based on cultural continuity within the eons, which is a typical balkan syndrom too. When FYROM was part of Macedonia, the official thesis was that SlavMacedonians are slavs who inhabit the lands of Macedonia. However, the slavmacedonian diaspora, eventually presented the position that slavmacedonians are descendants of Alexander. This is natural, because most of these people come from Greek or Pirin Macedonia so, no sense of ''homeland'' could be regarded as valid if doesnt include the birthplaces of the people who left after the Greek civil war finished.
The conflict is not about the name. It is about the cultural heritage of Macedonia- who is the legitimate descendant of Alexander and Philip is not a diplomatic conflict. Actually, the Slavmacedonian narrative if includes Alexander's era in fact destroys the Greek national narrative, which is also based on cultural continuity.
FYROM and GREECE should find a mixed-name. Nobody says that these people do not have the right to self determination but this shouldnt involve irridentism against neighbouring countries. History should be available for research, Greece should apology for the repressive measures against Slavmacedonians and FYROM should renounce any expansionalist feelings against Greece. Macedonia is also a geographical region which extend far from FYROM's territory and that why we should find a formula for the name. Whether SlavMacedonians are a nation or not (as the Bulgarians say) is a matter of ethnology and not international relations.